Did Canadian army in ETO use 4x2 CMPs?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

By the way did the canadian army in ETO ever used 4x2 trucks ? The CZ42 number is pure fantasy .
By what I figured out with Bart Vanderveen all the 4x2 contracts were for the British army , numbers started all with Z444..
Does anybody have wartime oictures of 4x2`s in Canadian service?

Maurice,

I rember we discussed this recently. I am sure David H., our resident Historian, can come up with good solid info on contracts etc.

All I know is that the Canadian units which went over to France in 1940 were equipped with brand new Ford F15 4x2 (and remotely possibly Chevrolet???) trucks - see CMPs first used in action: June 1940, France.

Groet,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's an F15 4x2 in Antwerp. Although it was captured on film by a Canadian unit, it could of course also be a British truck. At least this could help to get the discussion on this subject going. . .

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

F15 in Antwerp with what looks like a British 15-cwt body (as found on Bedford MW's and the like)?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's an F15 4x2 in Antwerp. Although it was captured on film by a Canadian unit, it could of course also be a British truck. At least this could help to get the discussion on this subject going. . .

. . . as this picture shows the same type of CMP in May 1945. This definitely is a Canadian Army truck as only (a) Canadian unit(s) liberated my home town.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

our resident Historian

That's made my day!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is in fact a very interesting and useful query. The answers are:

1. Ford F.15 and Chevrolet C.15 trucks were the first off the assembly lines at Southampton May 1940. 4x4 15-cwt versions followed some months later.
2. C.8 and presumably F.8 production commenced shortly after the 4x2 15-cwt trucks.
3. C.8 production at Oshawa, and I am guessing F.8 production at Windsor, terminated in 'Late 1941', in favour of 4x4 variants.
4. There is no evidence yet as to when 4x2 15-cwt production ended but I am sure that Dr Gregg suggested that they were 'obsolete' in Canadian service by 1944. I can find no record in my database of Canadian 4x2 trucks in 1943 Model Year.
5. The last known 4x2 truck that I know of was a C.15 assembled on November 16th 1943. That was to British order, S/M 6050 which was it seems the last GM order for 4x2 trucks.

However, I am not sure whether the F.602S and F.602L 4x2 lorries were used by the Canadians....they were of course 4x2 CMPs!

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

. . . as this picture shows the same type of CMP in May 1945. This definitely is a Canadian Army truck as only (a) Canadian unit(s) liberated my home town.

Hanno, this business of studying old trucks has a different emotional impact when you put it that way. Which regiment(s)?

[George McKenzie]

I have an original Department of National Defences instruction book. Fifth Edition , printed July 1941 by General Motors of Canada for the, 8CWT 4x2,15CWT4x2, 15CWT 4x4,30CWT4x4,3TON4x4 ,FA GUN Tractor 4x4.Would this mean they usde the 8CWT 4x2 CMPs inthe war ?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Both C.8 and F.8 initially to my knowledge.

There is of course a photo of a F[?].15 in Dr Gregg's book when it mentions that they were obsolete.

[John McGillivray]

When the 5th Cdn Armoured Division was deployed to Italy in late 1943, it was equipped with old British wheeled vehicles. Besides being in very poor condition, many of the vehicles were 4x2s. It is most likely that some of them found their way to NWE when 1st Cdn Corps moved there in March 1945.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

There is of course a photo of a F[?].15 in Dr Gregg's book when it mentions that they were obsolete.

Ah yes, that one - see quote from CMPs first used in action: June 1940, France below. While its census number CZ 4204396 denotes overseas service, this picture was most likely taken in the UK (possibly at Borden, Hampshire). But according to the vehicle data book which was reproduced in Gregg's book, by 1944 4x2 trucks were no longer used in operatonal commands, but limited numbers were used in the UK as general purpose load carrier for supplies and stores by CRU or other base units.

Hanno

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

David, I think this could even be an actual example of that batch. The countryside in the background looks like it could be in the UK, but there are not enough clues to be sure of that.

However, its census number CZ 4204396 implies overseas service. Do have have a list of the census numbers that were applied by the CMD?

Also note that the paintwork is weathered (especially on the roof) and the left front fender is somewhat battered. So it must have been in use for some time, possibly as a runabout / barracks hack. A truck looking like this when assigned to an active unit would certainly not pass inspection by the RSM.

[gordon]

Reading through the scheduling of the 4 x 2 and 4 x 4 changeover above, it would seem to me that they concentrated on 4 x 4 CMPs from 1942 on because of the huge quantities of 4x2 Dodge trucks, D15 and D60, that they had available from that point. It would be relatively easy to concentrate production of 4 x 4s as Chev and Ford, and leave Dodge to churn out all the 4 x 2's.

In fact Canadian Dodge production pretty much went the other way, starting with the 4 x 4 D8A, and swapping over to 4 x 2 D15 and D60 types at around the same time the Chev and Ford production changed.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here are two more pictures of a Ford F15 4x2 with a British cargo body:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21640011@N07/4360903714

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21640011@N07/4360186567/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here are two more pictures of a Ford F15 4x2 with a British cargo body:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21640011@N07/4360903714

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21640011@N07/4360186567/

Granted, this truck seems to be in use with the British Army and not the Canadian Army.

These Cab 13's with British 15-cwt body could well be chassis/cabs delivered for completion as Polsten AA trucks, which were no longer needed when the Allies gained air superiority, and converted into GS trucks.

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

At least a 4x2 on 39 sec.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0VumA283eA


Greetings

Hendrik

[Alex van de Wetering]

F15 in Alkmaar 1945. However...is it British or Canadian?

The second picture of the Jeep and Fordson were taken on the same day and on the same location. Fordson and jeep are clearly marked Canadian.....so F15 as well???


Source: http://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.n...beeldcollectie

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hendrik van Oorspronk

At least a 4x2 on 39 sec.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0VumA283eA

Yep, looks like another one with British 15-cwt body.

Nice find!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

F15 in Alkmaar 1945. However...is it British or Canadian?

The second picture of the Jeep and Fordson were taken on the same day and on the same location. Fordson and jeep are clearly marked Canadian.....so F15 as well???

To my knowledge, it were Canadian units which took over control of the Western part of Holland after the German surrender. So, I'd say the F15 was in Canadian use.

Another great find, you are "good busy"

[Robert Bergeron]

Hanno,

How do you tell a 4 x2 from a 4 x 4 from the outside ?

Robert

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

How do you tell a 4 x2 from a 4 x 4 from the outside ?

A 4x2 sits lower, and has an I-beam front axle and different front hubs.

The I-beam front axle can be seen in the last photo.

[jakob]

Hello, i have a C15 from 42 civilian dash horizontal switches. Made britich contact, but i have a CZ and britisch number on the doar

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by jakob

Hello, i have a C15 from 42 civilian dash horizontal switches. Made britich contact, but i have a CZ and britisch number on the doar

Thanks Jakob,

It sounds like a C15 built under a British contract, but used by the Canadian Army.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Caption:
"D-DAY.nChevrolet CMP C60,CMP No.13-cabbed, 3-Ton Covered Fixedside-bodied 4x4 General Service Freight Lorry, at Pont L'Eveque, circa 10 miles from Deauville, D-Day plus 4:-"



Source: http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/view...?f=35&t=114300

[jakob]

Sorry richt truck on the picture is a C15a 4x4 15cwt version.....

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by jakob

Sorry richt truck on the picture is a C15a 4x4 15cwt version.....

Indeed the caption "C60" is wrong, but it is a 4x2 C15....take a close look at the front axle:

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Originally Posted by jakob

Sorry richt truck on the picture is a C15a 4x4 15cwt version.....

Sorry Jakob, but it is a 4x2, look close at the front axle at the left front wheel, but I think it is British.

Hendrik

[jakob]

Yes hanno jou are right. it's a 4x2 Model C15 15cwt like mine.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

On p. 246 of Les Freaty's British Military Trucks of WW2 I found this interesting picture of a Ford CMP F15 4x2 truck fitted with a British-built cargo body.

My hypothesis is that these trucks were originally assembled as Truck, 15-cwt, 4x2, AA, Mk II, more often referred to as a 15-cwt Polsten AA truck (or similar).
When due to Allied air superiority this type of AA truck was not needed anymore, they were re-bodied with GS type bodies commonly found on British 15-cwt trucks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another surviving F15, this one was sold last year at the Honychurch auction in the UK and now resides in the Netherlands, awaiting a lengthy rebuild:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

On p. 246 of Les Freaty's British Military Trucks of WW2 I found this interesting picture of a Ford CMP F15 4x2 truck fitted with a British-built cargo body.

Here's one of these F15's with British wooden body as found on British 15-cwt trucks like the Bedford MW, Morris-Commercial, etc.

This one is in use with the Norwegian Brigade in Germany, 1947-1953. Picture source: https://digitaltmuseum.no/0110127322...klandsbrigaden

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Perhaps a strange question, but where there any 4x2 's delivered to the Canadian Army?? 4x2 is a typical British configuration, like the Bedford MW and the Fordson WOT 2.

Groeten Hendrik