Types of vehicles used in a Reconnaisance Regiment

[randall klein]

Hope someone can shed some light on the following question:

Within a typical Squadron in a Recce Regiment, what vehicles were used and how many were allocated to each Squadron.

Many thanks,

Randall Klein

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by randall klein

Hope someone can shed some light on the following question:

Within a typical Squadron in a Recce Regiment, what vehicles were used and how many were allocated to each Squadron.

Hi Randall;

A couple of questions for you:

- what period are you looking at?
- who's army (Canadian, British, ...) are you looking at?
- do you want the information for a 'Reconnaissance Regiment' or for an 'Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment' or both?

Cheers

[randall klein]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Hi Randall;

A couple of questions for you:

- what period are you looking at?
- who's army (Canadian, British, ...) are you looking at?
- do you want the information for a 'Reconnaissance Regiment' or for an 'Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment' or both?

Cheers

Mark, thanks for the quick reply.
I am after both Canadian Reconnaissance Regiment and Canadian Armoured Recce Regiment from '43-45 or thereabouts.
An Aussie friend's dad served with a British Recce Regiment. We are sort of comparing notes on formations and equipment used during WW2.
My Dad served with the 17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars (7th Recce Regiment, 3rd Div, Royal Canadian Army ) during WW2 and landed in Normandy Dday+5.
Thanks for your help

Randy

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by randall klein

Mark, thanks for the quick reply.
I am after both Canadian Reconnaissance Regiment and Canadian Armoured Recce Regiment from '43-45 or thereabouts.
An Aussie friend's dad served with a British Recce Regiment. We are sort of comparing notes on formations and equipment used during WW2.
My Dad served with the 17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars (7th Recce Regiment, 3rd Div, Royal Canadian Army ) during WW2 and landed in Normandy Dday+5.
Thanks for your help

Randy

I'll see what I can dig up out of my cave ... I mean files

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by randall klein

Within a typical Squadron in a Recce Regiment, what vehicles were used and how many were allocated to each Squadron.

Hi Randy;

This is a start - based on the vehicle portion of the War Establishment for ‘An Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C. (Type B)’ (Cdn. II/156/1 - effective 12 January 1944):

Squadron Headquarters:

2x Truck, Heavy Utility, Personnel, 4x4
1x Truck, 15-cwt, Battery Charging, 4x4
2x Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4
11x Lorry, 3-Ton, GS, 4x4
1x Lorry, 3-Ton, 6-WH, Stores, 6x6
1x Scout Car, 4x4
4x Tank, Cruiser
1x Tank, Recovery
1x Trailer, 20-cwt, 2-WH, Water

Troop:

2x Tank, Light
2x Tank, Cruiser

Troop:

2x Tank, Light
2x Tank, Cruiser

Troop:

2x Tank, Light
2x Tank, Cruiser

Troop:

2x Tank, Light
2x Tank, Cruiser

Troop:

2x Tank, Light
2x Tank, Cruiser

Total Squadron:

2x Truck, Heavy Utility, Personnel, 4x4
1x Truck, 15-cwt, Battery Charging, 4x4
2x Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4
11x Lorry, 3-Ton, GS, 4x4
1x Lorry, 3-Ton, 6-WH, Stores, 6x6
1x Scout Car, 4x4
10x Tank, Light
14x Tank, Cruiser
1x Tank, Recovery
1x Trailer, 20-cwt, 2-WH, Water

This is the War Establishment that was used by the three Squadrons of the 3rd Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The Governor General's Horse Guards), C.A.C., the divisional ‘Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment’ of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division while in Italy from January 1944 to their departure for North-West Europe in early 1945.

The other Canadian ‘Reconnaissance’ regiments of the Canadian Army were the:

4th Reconnaissance Regiment (4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards), C.A.C. - with the 1st Canadian Infantry Division

8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), C.A.C. - with the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division

7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C. - with the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division

29th Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment), C.A.C. - with the 4th Canadian Armoured Division

more to follow on the vehicle portion of the War Establishment for these units later.

Cheers

[randall klein]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for this.
It appears that the makeup of a regular recce regiment, IE 17th Duke Of York's Royal Canadian Hussars was vastly different than the South Alberta Regiment?
Your thoughts?

Randy

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by randall klein

Hi Mark,

Thank you for this.
It appears that the makeup of a regular recce regiment, IE 17th Duke Of York's Royal Canadian Hussars was vastly different than the South Alberta Regiment?
Your thoughts?

Randy

In Normandy/NWE the SAR was structured the same as an armoured regiment, ie a recce troop with light tanks and the three squadrons equipped with cruiser tanks - 17th Duke Of York's Royal Canadian Hussars was different altogether - more to follow on this subject once I'm home.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by randall klein

Hi Mark,

Thank you for this.
It appears that the makeup of a regular recce regiment, IE 17th Duke Of York's Royal Canadian Hussars was vastly different than the South Alberta Regiment?
Your thoughts?

Randy

This site will give you the general make up of the three types of Reconnaissance regiments.

1- Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (for armoured divisions)
2- Armoured Car Regiment (for corps)
3- Reconnaissance Regiment (for infantry divisions)

http://truxmodels.co.uk/page35.html

Note that Canadian units sometimes differed from the British norm.

[maple_leaf_eh]

That TRUX link has some very interesting reading. A blend of formal ORBATS, practical experience, war stories and technical variations. There is a description of use of 'Loyd' (sic) carriers and a comment on when they were eventually replaced by Universal carriers. If you do a Ctrl > F search to find the words family or families. Some interesting commentary on the social aspects of British regimental classes. Yes, even with the the armoured corps is a class structures.

[randall klein]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

That TRUX link has some very interesting reading. A blend of formal ORBATS, practical experience, war stories and technical variations. There is a description of use of 'Loyd' (sic) carriers and a comment on when they were eventually replaced by Universal carriers. If you do a Ctrl > F search to find the words family or families. Some interesting commentary on the social aspects of British regimental classes. Yes, even with the the armoured corps is a class structures.

Terry,
Wow, huge detail on the composition of Recce Regiments.
Thanks for this.

[randall klein]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the link. Huge detail on Recce Regiments.

Randy

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by randall klein

It appears that the makeup of a regular recce regiment, IE 17th Duke Of York's Royal Canadian Hussars was vastly different than the South Alberta Regiment? Your thoughts?

Hi Randy;

The vehicles used by the 7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C. of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division - based on the vehicle portion of the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ (Cdn. II/251/2 - effective 21 February 1944):

(this would be the same for the 8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), C.A.C. of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division)

56x Motorcycle, Solo
10x Car, 5-cwt, 4x4
1x Truck, Heavy Utility, Personnel, 4x4
3x Truck, 15-cwt, Fitted For Wireless, 4x4
10x Truck, 15-cwt, GS, 4x4
4x Truck, 15-cwt, Water, 4x4
32x Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4
22x Lorry, 3-Ton, GS, 4x4
24x Car, Light Reconnaissance, 4x4
19x Armoured Car, 4x4
75x Carrier, Universal (12 of these with the regiment’s anti-tank battery - 8x gun tower and 4x ammunition carrier)
6x Carrier, 3-inch Mortar

as compared to the Trux site British War Establishment for a Reconnaissance Regiment (WE II/251/2 - effective December 1943) of:

55 X motorcycle
1 X car 4 seater 4 X 4
10 X car 5cwt 4 X 4 (jeep)
12 X 15cwt GS
4 X 15cwt water
33 X armoured 15cwt
22 X 3ton 4 X 4
12 X Loyd Carrier
69 X Universal Carrier
28 X armoured car
24 X light reconnaissance car

so you see, there was slight differences between the Canadian and British vehicle portion of the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment’.

Cheers

[randall klein]

Hi Mark

Many thanks for the post. There was a big difference between vehicles used by Armoured and Infantry Recce Regiments.

Thanks again,

Randy

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Wheeled armoured vehicles

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

"32x Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4"
These wouldn't have been C15TA's, more likely American supplied half tracks.

"24x Car, Light Reconnaissance, 4x4"
Humber Reconnaissance Cars, not Canadian Otters

19x Armoured Car, 4x4"
Humber Mk.IV Armoured cars

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

"32x Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4"
These wouldn't have been C15TA's, more likely American supplied half tracks.

Yes, they wouldn't have been C15TA's - when the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ - Cdn II/251/2 - came into effect (Feb 44), the 'Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4' would have been referring to the 'White, M3A1, 15-cwt, 4x4'

Cheers

[Barry Churcher]

Mark, I don't want to hijack Randall's thread but I wonder if you could help me? I see you will be at BBBBBQ and I would like to ask you about C15TA's. Who all could have used them etc. I would like to change the markings on mine and could use some help in deciding. I don't even know what regiment the current markings are. Stefan researched them and put them on. I am not unhappy with them but I really don't like the number CZ4288013 It comes from my superstitious Irish grandmother. Hope to see you Saturday.
Cheers,
Barry

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Barry Churcher

Mark, I don't want to hijack Randall's thread but I wonder if you could help me? I see you will be at BBBBBQ and I would like to ask you about C15TA's. Who all could have used them etc. I would like to change the markings on mine and could use some help in deciding. I don't even know what regiment the current markings are. Stefan researched them and put them on. I am not unhappy with them but I really don't like the number CZ4288013 It comes from my superstitious Irish grandmother. Hope to see you Saturday.

Hi Barry;

... and here I thought I was attending a BBQ and didn’t have to work ...

To answer your second question, your current markings are those of the 18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons), C.A.C. (II Cdn Corps Troops) and in answer to your first question, I’ll bring along Cdn user unit info for the C15TA, Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4.

One unit you may want to mark it up as belonging to is the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment, C.A.C. (Kangaroos) ...

See you on the weekend ... oh, and I’ll bring along the invoice for my research ...

Cheers

[Barry Churcher]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

One unit you may want to mark it up as belonging to is the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment, C.A.C. (Kangaroos) ...

See you on the weekend ... oh, and I’ll bring along the invoice for my research ...

Cheers

Hi Mark
I think that is what James Gosling's truck is marked as and it sure stands out. The kangaroo on the door really sets it off nicely. Perhaps I could pay you off with Gilles burgers and beer.
Cheers,
Barry

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Yes, they wouldn't have been C15TA's - when the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ - Cdn II/251/2 - came into effect (Feb 44), the 'Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4' would have been referring to the 'White, M3A1, 15-cwt, 4x4'

Cheers

Mark, the designation “Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured Personal” was used for both the C15TA and the White Scout Car as shown CMHQ Report 141. There was a separate designation for the Half-track. The C15TA only started to arrive in May 1944. In June the establishment called for 414 “Truck, 15-cwt Armoured Personnel”. However the Canadians in NWE only held 179. The short fall was made up by using International Half Tracks. The assault troops of 17DoY, RCH were using half tracks when they went into Normandy which were gradually replaced by the C15TA. Note except for one example used by SAR for their ACV the Canadians did not use the White Halftrack M3A1.

http://web.archive.org/web/200602150...hq/cmhq141.pdf

Humber Mk.IV Armoured cars were replaced by Daimlier Armoured Cars in October 1944.

[Ron Pier]

What is the marking in the centre front? It looks like the British 79th armoured div (Bulls Head) ( Hobarts Funnies). Ron

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Yes, they wouldn't have been C15TA's - when the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ - Cdn II/251/2 - came into effect (Feb 44), the 'Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4' would have been referring to the 'White, M3A1, 15-cwt, 4x4'

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

Mark, the designation “Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured Personal” was used for both the C15TA and the White Scout Car as shown CMHQ Report 141. There was a separate designation for the Half-track. The C15TA only started to arrive in May 1944. In June the establishment called for 414 “Truck, 15-cwt Armoured Personnel”. However the Canadians in NWE only held 179. The short fall was made up by using International Half Tracks. The assault troops of 17DoY, RCH were using half tracks when they went into Normandy which were gradually replaced by the C15TA. Note except for one example used by SAR for their ACV the Canadians did not use the White Halftrack M3A1.

Hi John;

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say, but ...

The designation I used for the White Motor Company built American CAR, SCOUT, M3A1, 4x4 of 'Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4' in response to Bruce Parker’s question is the designation that appears in both the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ - Cdn II/251/2 (effective 21 February 1944) and in the VEHICLE DATA BOOK, Canadian Army Overseas (Pubs 167 40/P & S/2978 (6681)) that was published under direction of The Branch of the Quartermaster-General, Canadian Military Headquarters (London) in March 1944, although in this publication the designation 'Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4' is followed in brackets by: (M3A1, 15-cwt, 4x4, 131 wb).

In this same publication, the General Motors built C15TA (vehicle Code: C15TA-ARMD-1) is also given the designation of 'Truck, 15-cwt, Armoured, 4x4' and is followed in brackets by: (15-cwt, 4x4, 101 wb), but as we know, the C15TA didn’t start to arrive in the UK until May 1944, with only 21 having been issued to units of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division by month’s end.

In regards to Half-tracks, in the above mentioned publication and in subsequent Canadian WE’s that I’ve seen, Half-tracks bare the simple designation of ‘Truck, 15-cwt, Half-track’ regardless of their task, except for instances of if fitted for wireless, they appear as ‘Truck, 15-cwt, Half-track, FFW’.

In my original response to Randy’s question, maybe I should not have used the leading words: “The vehicles used by the 7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C. of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division ...”, but instead said “That to give you an idea of what vehicles the 7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars), C.A.C. of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division may have been equipped with, the following is the vehicle portion of the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ (Cdn. II/251/2 - effective 21 February 1944), which is the War Establishment their issue of vehicles would have been based on for comparison to what the Trux site states was the British War Establishment for a Reconnaissance Regiment (WE II/251/2 - effective December 1943) ...”.

I should also maybe have explained in my original post the difference between what the WE of ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ (Cdn. II/251/2) stated was to be the scale of transport issue and what the units sometimes received in lieu of. I merely quoted the scale of transport issue as called for under the War Establishment for ‘A Reconnaissance Regiment, C.A.C.’ (Cdn. II/251/2) that was authorized at the time that the WE came into effect (12 Feb 44), for the ‘Divisional Reconnaissance Regiment’ of both the 2nd and 3rd Canadian Infantry Divisions (14th Canadian Hussars and the 17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars, respectively).

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

What is the marking in the centre front? It looks like the British 79th armoured div (Bulls Head) ( Hobarts Funnies). Ron

Yes Ron, you are correct, it is the 79th's 'Bulls Head' formation sign, which was applied to the vehicles of the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment, C.A.C., with effective from 25 December 1944.

Cheers