Preserved Stuart tanks in Canada ?

[André Flener]

Dear Members,

I would like to know how many Stuart tanks (M3 & M5 series) actually are preserved, or have at least survived more or less complete, in Canada.

So far, I'm aware of the following ones:

- M5A1 (with early style turret) at Camp Borden;
- M5A1 (with late style turret) at Camp Borden;
- M5A1 "Simitar" at the RCA Museum Camp Shilo;
- M5A1 turret-less recce version in St Catherines.

Does any other military museum have one in its collection (or in the near futur)? Are there any owned by private collectors?

Maybe a few more ex-Portuguese Army M5A1's were re-imported to Canada...

Many thanks in advance for any information you could provide!

Kind Regards,

André Flener

G103 Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G103/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by André Flener
- M5A1 turret-less recce version in St Catherines.

Of which pictures can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/cmpvehicles..._vi_recce.html

[André Flener]

Thanks, Hanno, for the link!

Here are some links for photos of the other Stuarts on my list:

- Camp Borden's two M5A1's:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6209/stuart.htm

(Unfortunately, Fred Olsen's website about the Worthington Park Museum seems to be offline at the moment.)

But I've two 'reserve' URLs for these tanks:

Early style turret M5A1:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/c...n-StuartM5.gif

(Source: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/can/Canada.htm )
(BTW, the 2nd Stuart "TORONTO" seen on that webpage is nowadays "SIMITAR" at the RCA Museum!)

Late style turret M5A1:

http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/vehicles/worth/41.JPG

(Source: http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/vehicles/worth/index.htm )


- M5A1 "SIMITAR" at the RCA Museum, Shilo:

http://www.artillery.net/english/photogalmuseum.htm

BTW, the same tank was once in Strathcona’s Horse's Historical Vehicle Troop:

http://www.strathconas.ca/Historic%2...istorical.html
http://www.strathconas.ca/Historic%2...e/histpics.htm

Well, now I'm searching for more Stuarts in Canada!

Regards,
André

G103 Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G103/

[Robert Dabkowski]

When I last passed thru (about 4 months ago) there were two turrets and a hull here but definitely unrestored and incomplete. My understanding (based on pure rumor) is that this vehicle was one of 3 "excavated" by Don Smith from Levy's Scrapyard in Toronto after Hurricane Hazel had washed them out of the yard and down into the Humber River valley. I believe that the other two (externally restored) now stand watch on Worthington's grave at Camp Borden. Robert in Toronto

[André Flener]

Thanks, Robert, for that information!

AFAIK, Don & George Elliott are two Canadian collectors, right? And I assume that you saw a M5A1 hull and turrets. That would be a "M5A1 project" in private hands for my list.

According to the search engines, Hurricane Hazel occured in october 1954. At around that time, most Canadian M5A1's were transferred to Portugal. So it's interesting to learn that at least three Stuarts were already located in a scrapyard - obviously at the company "Levy Auto Parts"; better known for their 'tank' parts. I wonder, if they also sold Stuart parts...

Yes, there are two M5A1's in the Worthington Park Museum at Camp Borden. So it could be possible that these tanks never went to Portugal and again back.

Regards,
André

G103 Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G103/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by André Flener
AFAIK, Don & George Elliott are two Canadian collectors, right? And I assume that you saw a M5A1 hull and turrets. That would be a "M5A1 project" in private hands for my list.

Correct, the Elliot brothers have at least one M5A1 Stuart.

So it's interesting to learn that at least three Stuarts were already located in a scrapyard - obviously at the company "Levy Auto Parts"; better known for their 'tank' parts. I wonder, if they also sold Stuart parts...

The Royal Netherlands Army's historical collection recently acquired NOS HVSS running gear for their M4A3(105) HVSS. Packed with the sprockets was a note stating:

DATE JULY 1964
QTY. 1
NAME PARTS
F.S.N. 2530-00-608-2270
PACKED BY LEVY AUTO PARTS

Since being packed by Levy Auto Parts these parts found their way to Greece, where they were acquired by another dealer who shipped them to the Netherlands.
Levy Auto Parts were probably the largest military vehicle surplus dealer in the world - so they likely sold Stuart parts too, André!

[Robert Dabkowski]

Brian Asbury, a rather well know HMV parts dealer here in Ontario took many, many truck loads of MV parts out of this yard. I'm not sure if Brian reads this list but if so I hope that he might better inform us about some of the more "colouful" events that occurred at Levy's over the years.

Robert in Toronto

[André Flener]

Well, this looks like some very "colourful" events:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/jonno/levys.html

Apparently in 1967, Levy Auto Parts had been accused of storing highly inflammable things on its property...

Regards,
André

G103 Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G103/

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

A contributor wrote:
"M5A1 "SIMITAR" at the RCA Museum, Shilo: ... BTW, the same tank was once in Strathcona’s Horse's Historical Vehicle Troop:"

I rode in this very tank in 1985 when it was owned by Dr. William (Bill) Gregg in Ontario. He had it restored and painted with the name TORONTO and I believe it was on a cover of Wheels and Tracks magazine (I would have to check my set to confirm). Bill told me that when he bought it (I don't recall where he bought it out of) it has USA registration numbers and a US applied name (apparently original is my recollection). I think it was FURY but would have to check my appraisal records. He named it TORONTO and he later donated his collection to the RCA Museum in Shilo, Manitoba. Shilo tried to trade it to the LdSH in Edmonton, but Shilo is legally obliged to keep the core Gregg Canadian Collection together (a condition of the donation in 1985) and the trade (for Brian Wood's superb restored Cab 13 Field Artilley Tractor) was reveresed.

I have also seen and photographed the two Stuart tanks at CFB Borden (2009) and the Stuart tank (turretless command vehicle) in St. Catharines, Ontario. I used to play on the latter one when I was a child. My memory tells me that the base 90 degree elbows for the rear ducts for wading ashore at Normandy were still on it in the 1950s. I have also heard that it was a BC Regiment tank that was knocked out in Normandy and that the Lincs and Wincs salvaged it and used it for the rest of the war - but I cannot confirm that story at this time. [I know the BCRs lost a bunch of Sherman in one battle but am not sure if they had any Stuarts.]

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

There is another Stuart tank in the Canadian War Museum. As I recall this one was part of the trade with the late Jacques Littlefield in California which I assisted by doing an appraisal.

Here is a photo published by someone else:
http://www.pbase.com/mrclark/image/63318555

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by André Flener

Thanks, Robert, for that information!

AFAIK, Don & George Elliott are two Canadian collectors, right? And I assume that you saw a M5A1 hull and turrets. That would be a "M5A1 project" in private hands for my list.

According to the search engines, Hurricane Hazel occured in october 1954. At around that time, most Canadian M5A1's were transferred to Portugal. So it's interesting to learn that at least three Stuarts were already located in a scrapyard - obviously at the company "Levy Auto Parts"; better known for their 'tank' parts. I wonder, if they also sold Stuart parts...

Yes, there are two M5A1's in the Worthington Park Museum at Camp Borden. So it could be possible that these tanks never went to Portugal and again back.

Regards,
André

G103 Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G103/

The Stuart at Elliot's was there until 5 (+/-) years ago. It was little more that a hull and a turret and I'm not sure where it went.

[Bob Phillips]

Gentlemen; A few thoughts...The Bill Gregg Stuart camefrom South Eastern Equipment in Georgia. I recall he also bought two T16 carriers from them. The Stuarts that were`salvagedfrom Levy's are another story- the version I heard was that Don Smith managed to get them airlifted out of the Humbefr River by the Sikorsky helicopterthat wasputting the radio towers on the CN tower0 they flewout of Downsview. These Stuarts were totally stripped hulks .two were scrapped after sitting around Downsview for an extended period, the third rescuedby Elliot brothers.This vehicle now in possesion of Marcus Schneider (Willys Acres) and you can see it on his website, Finally just a week ago I took photos of the Borden Stuarts including some inside shots of one vehicle from the rear. no engines or transmissions but a very rusty turret basket and some other innards- If I can ever figure out how to post a photo I will include that picture/ Thats the way I heard it !

[peter simundson]

There were at least 8 Stuarts against the back fence in Levy's.
In 1954 the hill was washed away and down they went into the ravine. Levy's promptly sent crews don to strip off the parts. The turrets and hulls were left on city property. Don then decided in 1976 to recover the three best hulls and turrets. He persuaded the Service Corps to help him do the recovery.
Off they went with wreckers and flatbeds After a month the three were at Base Downsview. The following Spring Don was short of cash so sold one for scrap. The scrapper took the wrong one. He took the one with all the hatches engine covers and back doors. The following year Don GAVE the other two, with turrets to me. I took the outside .30 cal mount off one turret. About two months later I phoned Elliott's and asked if they would store them (bad move). Any way one was sold to a Quebec restorer, who never picked it up (just a turret) and the other went to that hard worker Markus.
The other turrets and parts behind Levy's were scrapped by Weston about
15 years ago in a Park cleanup. More to come??

[Bob Phillips]

Thank you Peter for setting the record straight! You havent got any old recovery photos tucked away do you ????

[Dean (Ajax)]

I saw one earlier this year in a fellows yard somewhere North Of Toronto..needs total restoration..but I am sure "he" will get to it.

Dean

[Bob Cohoon]

Markus Schneider bought the M5A1 hull and turret last year, and he is working on it now and gathering parts for it. You can see it at his website " Wiliy`s Acres" on the internet. The other turret and engine cover went to a collector in Washington state a few years back. I am sure Markus will do a nice job on it, he is very capable of even fabricating missing parts. The Canadian War Museum in Ottawa has a restored M5A1 on display which I think they traded from the Littlefield collection in California.I heard of another M5A1 up near Sept Iles, Quebec, but I never heard too much about that one.It was supposedly bought from Southeastern Equipment in Georgia back when they were selling some from Portugal. I heard that hurricane Hazel washed some tanks into the river behind where Levy Auto Parts was on Black Creek Drive, but i thought they were Shermans.Maybe there was a Stuart or 2 in that, and they`re probably still in the river. One of the big companies that bought stuff from Levy`s was Tekmotiv, and they had an M41 that they were using as a yard tractor, wonder where that is now?

[David Dunlop]

Hello Hanno.

The late Peter Ford used to make regular stops at Levy's yard on his way through to Ottawa to research the Archives on Canadian Wartime Production records. I believe one of his last visits was with Brian Asbury at the time Levy's was shut down. The property was huge, as was their military parts inventory, and their entire inventory control system was based on a manual card file system. Each part was assigned a bin number, on a shelf, in a shed in a given row on the property. This system worked extremely well in the pre-computer days when all the staff were familiar with it.

Towards the end of Levy's, the system had started to fail them badly. Older, experienced staff left the company and younger ones just didn't give a damn. It was not uncommon at all for Peter to go into a shed and look at the label on a parts bin that said item "XYZ" was stored there. The front most box would indeed hold that part, but if you pulled that box out, one or more other boxes of completely unrelated parts could be found, pushed in behind. Staff would just shove a new box of parts onto the first available open shelf, relabel the shelf and walk away. Someone else would later come along looking for what had originally been on the shelf, see something new stocked there and just assume the original part had been sold off/no longer in stock.

Sadly, this all happened just as world wide interest in collecting and restoring military vehicles was catching on and the value of their property in Toronto was climbing. Pity they couldn't have held on long enough to convert all of their inventory to a computer system. They could have made far more of a fortune in the collector's market than they even did in the official government sales and commercial venues.

Levy's was probably the largest and longest active military surplus dealer in Canada. Princess Auto out of Winnipeg would have been a distant second. Levy's was also a major player in the inspection and repackaging of military parts and it has long been suspected they were a major supplier of surplus military parts to foreign governments "on behalf of the Canadian Government", when it was politically incorrect for the Canadian Government to be seen as taking direct action themselves.

Yes. There are probably some VERY interesting stories yet to be revealed about Levy's. Some of them probably worthy of a book at least, or a good movie!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I recall going through Levy's yard just as they were closing. Row after row of long wooden buildings with narrow isles down the middle, floor to ceiling bins on either side. The light coming in from the tiny open door at the far end gave some idea of the size. In many places the roof had fallen in. Out back along the fence there was a stack of wood/composite CMP 60cwt boxes in great shape.

I collected about three crates of parts including a lot of carrier stuff and even a pair of periscopes for my Fox. The sales guy looked at what I had and said "$200". That was it.

The sad part was that I was in competition with the scrappers. I looked in a bin, picked up a part and said "jeep" or "carrier" or "CMP". The scrappers were doing the same except saying "steel" or "brass" or "aluminum" and then throwing them into the correct bin for melting down.

[Brian Carey]

A small mystery then: I attended a "Liberation of Holland" parade and display in Perth, Ontario in June of 1997. At this event on display was a restored Stuart tank with a placard on it that recounted the story of Levy's and Hurricane Hazel. The placard claimed that 3 tanks had been washed into the Humber but only one, that particular one was recovered and restored. It was parked so I can't say if it was a runner or not.

From the above statements, I am uncertain which tank I saw!

Also, has anyone done any metal detecting on the embankment behind former Levy's? I'm thinking that between 1954 and 1995 a great number of bits and pieces may have been buried and still lurk below the surface where the cleanup crews overlooked.

Anyone?

[Bob Cohoon]

I am sure there are items in the river behind where Levy' s was . It would take some metal detection equipment and a diver to check. Anything there may have sunk into the mud ,though, right out of sight, but it' s worth a look .That would be something to pull out a couple of Stuarts ! I know for a fact that the 2 M5A1 turrets which were at Elliott Auto Parts were pulled out of the river behind Levy' s after the storm

[Bob Cohoon]

I guess I should read more. Peter Simundson, in an earlier post, said there were 8 Stuarts at Levy' s , and 3 partial ones out of that were recovered. That leaves 5 unaccounted for in that area

[Stew Robertson]

Just a little spoof

[chris vickery]

The Stuart is no longer is Markus' hands as far as I know. Apparently sold off to a collector somewhere.

[Mike K]

I was watching TV last evening. Alby Mangels is back .. with a new series . But still with the young chick and dog and boats and aeroplanes .... the same formula from the 1970's .

He was in New Guinea in last nights show looking for WW2 relics and he found a Stuart tank , basically complete but very rusty . The scene where he finds the tank is all set up, or faked . Its probably been well known for years but he made out that he discovered it ! Mike

PS for our O/S members , Alby Mangels is a modern day Indianna Jones character , he must be in his 60's by now . He makes ridiculous doco / drama movies and sells them to TV stations ...

[Bob Cohoon]

I think there were a few other Stuarts in Canada, as I remember a collector friend telling me about a cut down M5A1 which was north of Ottawa. I went to see about it, but was about 5 years too late , as the local scrap yard guy remembered it, " a fairly big tracked chassis with Cadillac engines in it" . Someone had tried to use it as a bulldozer and eventually sold it. I don' t know where it went, but i seem to remember reading about someone in New Brunswick who bought a chassis like that in Ontario, maybe the same. So, I think a couple of Stuarts were sold surplus in the 50' s. I know that there were Staghounds sold in St. Hyacinthe at a surplus dealer there, and there was a turret-less Daimler armoured car ( big one) which was being used as a snow plow by the city of St. Hubert in the 50's . Would be nice to know where that is now. Bill Gregg had a couple of Staghounds ( hulls, etc) from St. Hyacinthe and also the rare Crusader turret for the Staghound late model also came from there. There was a cut down Staghound chassis in Drummondville but it has finally been sold in England and is being restored. There is also one more really nice Staghound still around Montreal but the location is unknown to me. Maybe it will surface in the next few years.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Wow!! Old thread.

From the 2003 posts; I recall unloading that Stuart in Calgary down at the LdSH lines with Jim R. and Kevin T.

As none of us really knew how to start and or drive it, it sticks in my memory!!

I've not heard of any Stuart around these parts. Jason?

regards
Darrell

[Bob Cohoon]

I also rememeber a collector friend I knew telling me that some Stuart' s sold were cut down and use as a base for rock drilling machines. There were at least one or two around Ottawa, but this is along time ago, 50's or 60's, so it would be lucky if they are still around. I remember, too, seeing an M3, or M3A1 chassis being used as the base for a crane in a small boatyard on the coast of Massachusetts or Maine, maybe 20 years ago. I guess some were sold as surplus here, but the best, most complete ones were the ex Portugese M5A1's , sold from Southeastern Equipment

[jason meade]

I have never heard of anything down this way, Mabey for training in Sussex or Utopia but that would have been prior to 54 as Gagetown became gagetown in 57...and nothing after that for sure on that side and never have heard of a private collector or anyone having something like that.
Jason

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Cohoon

I am sure there are items in the river behind where Levy' s was . It would take some metal detection equipment and a diver to check. Anything there may have sunk into the mud ,though, right out of sight, but it' s worth a look .That would be something to pull out a couple of Stuarts ! I know for a fact that the 2 M5A1 turrets which were at Elliott Auto Parts were pulled out of the river behind Levy' s after the storm

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Peter Simundson
Date: 5 September 2012 04:56
Subject: Re: Reply to thread 'Preserved Stuart tanks in Canada ?'
To: MLU FORUM

There were three turrets and three hulls pulled out. All three went to Base Toronto behind a wire fence. One was sold for scrap (the wrong one). The other two I gave to Elliotts. They sold one to a guy in Quebec and Markus bought the
other one and made a great effort to put it together.
There was a lot of Stuart parts including turrets and baskets and MG mounts still there until about 8years ago
when the city did a cleanup and scrapped everything. But a metal detector will reveal whats under the earth above the river. There is nothing in the river.
What was pulled out went in 1974.

Peter S

[Bob Cohoon]

In 1988, there was one stripped hull with a fairly complete turret on it, 2 engine covers, one stripped turret on the ground, some idler wheels and suspension arms and 2 sets of track there for an M5A1 Stuart at Elliott Auyo parts. They decided to sell the hull, one turret,tracks and suspension parts to me, the person from Quebec, and years later, a collector from Washington state bought the stripped turret and one engine cover. Markus bought all the Stuart parts I had collected over the years plus the hull, turret at Elliott's a few years ago. He then purchased more parts to help complete the project and began doing work on it. This is What Happened, for real, because I was involved, and I would like to see the facts right for just once. I heard now that the tank project has been resold again