military vehicles in Northern Ireland

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by fv1620
What do people make of this then?

Clive,

It looks like a Mk1, or in other words, not uparmoured. Unless it was made for a film job, I was not aware that Flying Pigs were anything else than Uparmoured versions. Another reason could be that it was from one of the training camps in England, as there was no chance of it being shot at, there. It looks like it has been demobbed as the census number has been removed, could be in a dealers yard?

Go on, shoot me down with a Malkara, probably wrong

Richard

[fv1620]

Richard you are quite correct, this indeed in the normal meaning of things, a Mk 1. People seem to assume that a pig with a barricade pusher is a Mk 2 ie uparmoured which this clearly isn't.

This pig was one 200 recovered from dealers & scrapyards for use in N.Ireland. The barricade pusher was fitted to most of the Mk1s & Mk2s. The rams were designed also to be fitted to Saracens, though in practice this didn't happen. The EMER for this mod was issued in 1975.

This is the only Mk 1 Flying Pig I have seen ie fitted with defensive screens. The EMER for this was issued in 1976.

This pig has an unusual feature in that on the tops of the rear doors fold down. I assume that this would allow troops to observe and fire from the rear. There is evidence that there were rear facing seats to faclitiate this.

I have only seen one other pig with this type of rear seating & where rear door flaps had been fitted. It is in my garage, but on mine the rear flaps have been welded up. So it was not a success I assume.

I took the picture in an ordnance dealers yard about 20 years ago. There were several Mk2 Pigs, 20 Shorlands & 20 Salidins.

[fv1620]

What's this all about?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by fv1620
What's this all about?

Would that be the 1,000th Pig repaired by REME in NI, possibly Kinnegar Wksps?

Bad photo, but the guy on the extreme left looks familiar, is his name Jones?

Richard

[fv1620]

Yes spot on. I had to doctor the original as it was a bit of a giveaway

[fv1620]

What's this then?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by fv1620
What's this then?

Clive,

It would appear to be a RUC Pig, but the barricade bar on it is rather unusual.

Richard

[fv1620]

Richard

This is the first type of barricade ram used on pigs. It is not only slightly snowplough shaped but its height is adjustable. Very ingenious.

But what model of pig is it & why do you say its an RUC one?


Clive

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by fv1620

But what model of pig is it & why do you say its an RUC one?

It has a NI civvy reg. number. At a glance I think it to be an early Mk1 ?

Richard

PS If I get this right, do I win a can of insecticide??

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Would that be the 1,000th Pig repaired by REME in NI, possibly Kinnegar Wksps?

Bad photo, but the guy on the extreme left looks familiar, is his name Jones?

Richard

Nope, can't be Roger; doesn't have a small cigar stuck in his face. . . . . . . . . .

R.

[fv1620]

Richard

Yes it 3071 EZ. But when you say it is a Mk1. Do you mean as in production Mk 1 ie FV1611 or do you mean Mk 1 as in FV1609 like mine which is the true Mk 1 ?

Why? Do you need some inseticide? Have you got green fly?

Clive

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by fv1620
But when you say it is a Mk1. Do you mean as in production Mk 1 ie FV1611 or do you mean Mk 1 as in FV1609 like mine which is the true Mk 1 ?

Have you got green fly?

Clive,

That would be the FV1609 that the RUC were issued with.

What makes you think I've got greenfly?????

Richard

[fv1620]

That would be the FV1609 that the RUC were issued with.

Actually, no its an Army FV1611. Originally 13 BK 01 but modified for police service.

There were ten FV1609s issued to the RUC in late 1958. During 1960 they were all fitted with an armoured roof, loosely based on the FV1611. These pigs were in the sequence 2986 OI to 3001 OI.

In 1962 2986 OI was destroyed & replaced by this FV1611. Some modifications were made:
Windscreen visors with horizontal slits.
Strong wire mesh protection over windscreens.
Painted Light Admiralty Grey
Front & rear foglights

The characteristics that show it to be a FV1611 rather than a FV1609 are:
Rails on roof for canvas
Square not rounded headlight covers
Aerial base support is thicker
Fittings where wipers were fiited (on FV1609 they are inside)
Pistol ports are more substantial
Bridge plate

3071 EZ was fitted with an adjustable barricade ram & painted in Rustoleum Green. It always seemed to be the pig that was used in front line in preference to the other FV1609 based pigs of which some had barricade rams. Here it can be seen covered in paint & being petrol bombed.


A unique & interesting vehicle that then entered Army serice in 1971 with the registration 27 BT 91 and was struck off census again in 1980.

[Les Freathy]

A couple more photos of the Pig in N.I the first trio show the differing types of crash clearance frames fitted, what is that thing poking out of the top hatch on the right facing the photo

[Les Freathy]

Second photo is a armoured ambulance
cheers
Les

[fv1620]

Nice shots there Les. Interestingly they are all Mk 1 despite the barricade rams which were fitted to both Mk1 & Mk2.

The thing at the top is a light, they were also fitted to Rovers.



The other stuff on the roof is a roll of barbed wire & a frame for a road sign for VCPs etc

The Mk1 ambulance is nice, but when it was uparmoured to Mk2 spec that one became an APC.

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by fv1620

Postwar British AFVs should be painted in Dark Admiralty Grey primer. The finish for this Pig was Light Admiralty Grey. This was the colour that I found inside the vehicle & is a very close match. I know that the 10 Humbers used by the RUC were painted this colour in 1962. This was to match the fleet of Commer armoured cars.



According to the records in 1963 the colour was changed to "olive drab". Now I don't know if this was genuinely olive drab or some clerks word for an army green. I have it documented that in 1969 they were definitely painted in a Rustoleum Green. It has been impossible to find what shades of Rustoleum were around in the 1960s.

Colour pictures I have vary with the degree of sunlight, its angle & the degree of wetness, let alone the individualities of the printers.

So the colour it was in this season gone was only a provisional green but a colour chosen to be quite diffrent from a colour used by the British Army. Besides it was very cheap & I had a lot of it.

Unfortunately the pig suffered a major rebuilt when it was taken over by the Army in 1970. So matching the original green has been a problem. However I have been able to cleanly lift a 4 inch patch of paint off an ex-RUC Shorland. This reveals the proper paint to be a satin, in a dark almost Brunswick Green.

I have large quantities of gloss Brunswick Green & intend to blend it to the correct colour. The problem is to get it to a satin finish. I have been told that adding French chalk, talcum powder etc will do this. But nobody that offered this advice has done it. So I don't know the quatities needed nor know how it will effect the strength of the paint etc.

The reason for moving on from grey was that I got somewhat depressed that the vehicle was largely ignored at MV shows. Because it was not green it was not in general taken seriously. I remember I was at a show next to a standard Mk2 Army pig. Visitors ignored the display information by my vehicle & were looking all over the green one & said "wow this is a Belfast one". Well mine has the registration still on it 2996 OI which means it was registered in Belfast in 1958.

I quite prefer the original grey as it looks more imposing!

[chrisgrove]

Nice to see a pic of two types of barrier removers. The mesh covers over the driver's hatches also varied a great deal (quite apart from the different shades of paint favoured by the opposition), If I can work out how to post pics, I'll try and show you what I mean. How about a Pig hit by a 3.5 RL (at about the third attempt)?

Chris

By the way, most of the Mk IIs I saw had a fold up hatch above the cut down rear doors, but I never saw transverse seats inside.

[chrisgrove]

First pig shows the roof of a Mk II, tastefully decorated.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...e/Pig-01-1.jpg

Second pig shows rear observation hatch on Pig Mk II, even more tastefully decorated.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...ove/Pig-02.jpg

Third pig shows another pattern of mesh screens.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...ove/Pig-03.jpg

Fourth pig shows one hit by 3.5 RL.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...ounded-pig.jpg

Chris

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Interesting Chris,
obviously some of the population hated the Pigs with a vengance. What did the crew think?
Rich.

[fv1620]

Chris those are interesting pictures thank you. I've never seen that particular grandious arrangement of mesh before.

Do you have a date? I would assume between 1972 (earliest Mk 2) & 1977 when wing mirrors were then moved to the front of the wings. I know there are no mirrors but there is one just visible on the O/S of the far Pig & that is halfway along the engine cover. The original place for a Mk 2.

The other very 70s thing is the aluminium painted wood on the O/S optically balancing the ERM plate on the N/S.

[chrisgrove]

Clive

Now you've got me. I have no certain reference about the date of those pics, but I reckon they must have been first half 1977; possibly second half 1976, but not desperately wintry that I remember. All my pics show Mk II Pigs with mirrors mounted halfway down the bonnet. And they were in Andersonstown in West Belfast.

Incidentally, there are various colour discussions here. When I first went to Belfast in Sep 70 to join the resident battalion at Palace Barracks Holywood, we had Mk I pigs which were painted in gloss deep bronze green and matt brown. Unfortunately my pics from this time are in black and white and do not show this well.

Rich

The local population were not too keen on us! However, my only personal experience was being in a Landrover hit by a brick in the Bogside a few years earlier. I can certainly tell you that if you wish to take no notice of sleeping policemen (speed humps), a pig is the thing to do it in. You simply do not notice them.

Chris

[fv1620]

Chris now that brown camo is very interesting. One can see as late as 1972 Pigs at that time being Mk1 still with a European green/black. I had assumed it was just the way the came, I didn't imagine that it was repainted once over there.

But this green/brown has fascinated me. I have just one picture of it & have on video some footage shot from the commanders seat of a Pig on patrol in a housing estate. Both sources looked as if it was freshly painted which seem odd trying to look "rural" in an urban situation.

What has foxed me even more is that at least two of the exRUC Commer water canon were at one stage painted green/brown. I realise in RUC service they were initially light grey then many became green. In later part of service with 17/21st Lancers they were plain green.

So I wonder what was the rationale behind this reddish-brown camo in an urban environment?

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have absolutely no interest in these at all! But what an informative and well illustrated thread. Many thnx.

(the other) Clive

[Nick Bullock]

Hi Clive
Nice work as ever, hope things are good with you?
Have you ever looked into the Dingos that were used in Northern Ireland, I remember being sent some pictures years ago of a number for sale that had previously been RUC vehicles?
I don't recall seeing any operational pictures though.
kind regards
nick

[FV1611A]

Originally Posted by servicepub

I have absolutely no interest in these at all! But what an informative and well illustrated thread. Many thnx.

(the other) Clive

Clive

Having visited the nerve centre at 'Casa Elliott' his study is very well stocked with archives and data, almost too much so. Information is most definately his thing. We mustn't exclude Richard from the 'Font of all Knowledge' group either!

Glad you are enjoying the thread.

Regards

Wayne

[fv1620]

Hello Nick, last time I saw you was when you were trying to get a quiet night's sleep at War & Peace!

I've got a number of in-service pics of RUC Dingos. But I have no pics of RUC Ferrets which I would like to see, although they didn't keep them for long. This clip shows one though in 1966 & Wayne you'll like this there is a RUC Pig, but not mine.

Sorry about the advert at the start. The vehicles are in the first part of this clip.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=71547

[malcolm erik bogaert]

Nick I do recall playing in a redundant Dingo at Kinnergar in 1969..all was going well until some idiot pulled the red switch...vehicle filled up with foam very rapidly so we beat a quick exit...I should like to point out that this same chap opened up a container of the radio active isotopes when we where delivering same under armed guard to Mosgrave Park Wing of RVI in Belfast..so we where all irradiated...wife often tells me I glow in the dark...best regards malcolm in a snowbound north-northumberland

[chrisgrove]

Originally Posted by fv1620

Chris now that brown camo is very interesting. One can see as late as 1972 Pigs at that time being Mk1 still with a European green/black. I had assumed it was just the way the came, I didn't imagine that it was repainted once over there.

But this green/brown has fascinated me. I have just one picture of it & have on video some footage shot from the commanders seat of a Pig on patrol in a housing estate. Both sources looked as if it was freshly painted which seem odd trying to look "rural" in an urban situation.

What has foxed me even more is that at least two of the exRUC Commer water canon were at one stage painted green/brown. I realise in RUC service they were initially light grey then many became green. In later part of service with 17/21st Lancers they were plain green.

So I wonder what was the rationale behind this reddish-brown camo in an urban environment?

Clive

Can't answer that one. As I said, I joined the resident battalion (2 Queens) about 3 months before they came back after a 2 year tour. The Bedfords were that colour too, with apple green (fireproofed) tilts with windows and an elevated (about a foot) centre bar on the tilt frame intended to get molotov cocktail ingredients to run off the sides. Have some pics of them too. Can't remember what colour the Rovers were. The point is that all those vehicles had been there some time, not imported from BAOR, but I have no idea when the brown bits were painted on, Tac signs were interesting too - red squares with 39/9 in white (39 Brigade), plus callsigns all round.

Chris

[fv1620]

Chris would be nice to see some of the Bedford pics if you get a chance.