FV603 Saracen

[Ed Storey]

This FV603 Saracen was for sale at Cohen and Cohen scap yard in Ottawa in 1984. I wonder what the story was concerning this vehicle and what became of it?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...aracencopy.jpg

[Jason Ginn]

Thanks for posting this Ed! I took pictures of this before it disappeared and was trying to dig them up last year but couldn't find them. I remembered it had a reg. plate on it and was curious what the number was. Problem solved!

IIRC that Saracen was later sold to SAIL (now PREFAIR) in Montreal. The last i saw of it was about 2002 when it was displayed in the front yard. I know that when I went through the back lot at Prefair in November it wasn't present.

I was told many years ago that this vehicle was acquired by the Museum of Science and Technology after going through trials in Canada and disposed of after radar equipment was removed from it. I know that Science and Tech. still has a very nice Saracen in storage so this may be a case of mistaken identity. A close look at the pic does show large mounting points still present on the roof and no turret so could this be a radar vehicle? I seem to recall that I took pictures of the inside and this vehicle and it wasn't equipped to carry a turret.

Hopefully someone recognizes the vehicle or configuration.

Ed you didn't by chance get a pic of the Ferret that used to sit beside this Saracen at Cohen's did you?

[Ed Storey]

No photo of the Ferret at Cohen's, although I do have a couple of images of the Saracen at SAIL. It has the radar mounted on it and my images do not have the registration plate, so I was not sure if it was the same vehicle as the one I photographed in 1984.

[Jason Ginn]

If you can please post a pic of the Sail Saracen. I recall that both vehicles were missing the centre wheel stations. I think that they just placed a naval dish on the roof while at Sail. Something like a AN/SPS-502 dish but i can't really recall. They also had M5 High Speed Tractor and a M135 with a naval rocket system in the bed but they are both gone as well.

[Ed Storey]

Here is a 2004 image from SAIL in Montreal.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Radar2copy.jpg

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jason

In the late 70s the Museum of S&T had two Saracen...... one was very complete including the inside.... the second one had both centre wheels removed and was mostly stripped on the inside...... they also had the Badeck speed boat sitting there also........ the one with the outside water wings.... whatever they are called..... although they were removed for shipping they were stacked up next to the boat...... security was not serious in those days and you could easily crawl in on early Sunday mornings..... never managed to crawl up the boat as it was rather high in wooden supports and no ladder to climb....but did crawl into the Saracen....... we were hoping to get the RR 6 cyl. engine for the Dodge M37.....

Story had it that they sat idle in the back section of the NRC Montreal Campus for years......

Bob

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Bob,
putting a straight 8 B80 into an M37 would have been quite a project!
Rich.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Richard

...... in those days you could buy a running M37 for $500 to 800..... I that was expensive for us........ acquiring the RR engine was a pipe dream....

Nonetheless, in those years there was till a lot of good stuff in junk yards around Ottawa...... like the 2 Churchill "Birdgelayers" ...... one of which we managed to get the CWM to purchase..... the second one was cut up for scrap before we could arrange to save it.....

Bunches of Mosquitoes..... all of which had the backbone fuselage crushed by dropping a 1/2 steel plate from a derrick..... nonetheless some exhaust manifolds were salvaged and if memory serves me right shipped out to Autralia for some collector...... cases of 12 cyl complete engines with little clear plastic look a like sparkplugs filled with pink silica gel crystals still inserted in cylinder heads.....

Ah the good old days.....

Bob

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Jason

In the late 70s the Museum of S&T had two Saracen...... one was very complete including the inside.... the second one had both centre wheels removed and was mostly stripped on the inside...... they also had the Badeck speed boat sitting there also........ the one with the outside water wings.... whatever they are called..... although they were removed for shipping they were stacked up next to the boat...... security was not serious in those days and you could easily crawl in on early Sunday mornings..... never managed to crawl up the boat as it was rather high in wooden supports and no ladder to climb....but did crawl into the Saracen....... we were hoping to get the RR 6 cyl. engine for the Dodge M37.....

Story had it that they sat idle in the back section of the NRC Montreal Campus for years......

Bob

Boobee..
Are you talking thos speed boat..or Hydrofoil..

Alexander Graham Bell's HD-4 Hydrofoil that he invented in the early 1900's. On September 19th, 1919, the HD-4 set the water speed record with a top speed of 70.8 mph (114 km/h). This record was considerably faster than other vessels of that time which could only manage roughly 30 mph and the record would stand for 10 years. Bell designed the Hydrofoil with the Navy in mind but as the war had ended when Bell achieved his accomplishment, the project died from lack of interest. The original HD-4 was found abandoned on a beach on the shore of the Bras d'Or Lake and is now part of the exhibit of the AGB Museum in Baddeck, Nova Scotia.


Or the new one..??

HMCS Bras d'Or (FHE 400) was a hydrofoil that served in the Canadian Forces from 1968 to 1971. During sea trials in 1969, the vessel exceeded 63 knots (117 km/h; 72 mph), making her possibly the fastest warship in the world.

The vessel was originally built from 1960 to 1967 for the Royal Canadian Navy, as a project for the testing of anti-submarine warfare technology on an ocean-going hydrofoil. The RCN was replaced on 1 February 1968 by the unified Canadian Armed Forces, and HMCS Bras d'Or was commissioned into that service several months later. Changes in priorities and cost overruns later led to the project's cancellation.

HMCS Bras d'Or was named in honour of Bras d'Or Lake on Nova Scotia's Cape Breton Island, where inventor Alexander Graham Bell performed hydrofoil experiments in the early 20th century near his estate and new laboratory at Beinn Bhreagh, setting the world watercraft speed record in the process. In 1909 the lake was also the historic site of the first flight of an aircraft in Canada and the British Commonwealth; the airplane, named the Silver Dart, was built by the Aerial Experiment Association under Dr. Bell's tutelage. The lake's name was thus fitting for a hydrofoil vessel which could 'fly' above an ocean's surface.

Then again as usual,because it was Canadian..the fastest in the world..Like the Canadian Avro Arrow..also the best and fastest jet fighter in the world,was scrapped..because our lickspittle ,mangy running dog,sniveling,grovelling,no balls politicians..were bought out by the US money men because the US had nothing at the time or on the books that could hold a candle to our technical teams..After they scrapped the Avro Arrow all the engineers were hired by the US and that is why the US had the man on the moon first..They woke up when the Russians put Sputnik into space in '57 leaving the US with nothing that could touch it so the CIA did a job on AVRO ..and blackmailed and bought out our Canadian running dog lackie leaders ,and our rotten to the core government scrapped the Arrow in '58...and stole all our talent to form NASA..

Bob ..you had to get me started..didn't you...I was trying to be pleasant this Christmas..but hate has a long memory..
Anyway that is how it is..when you have politicians and lawyers running your country..I would rather have murderers..child molesters and drug dealers running the country....
..Jeez....What am I saying...we already have....
Merry Christmas

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Alex Blair

...


Then again as usual,because it was Canadian..the fastest in the world..Like the Canadian Avro Arrow..also the best and fastest jet fighter in the world, was scrapped ... because our lickspittle, mangy running dog, sniveling, grovelling, no balls politicians ... were bought out

... and blackmailed and bought out our Canadian running dog lackie leaders, and our rotten to the core government scrapped the Arrow in '58 ... and stole all our talent to form NASA..

Bob ... you had to get me started..didn't you...I was trying to be pleasant this Christmas..but hate has a long memory.
Anyway that is how it is ... when you have politicians and lawyers running your country ... I would rather have murderers ... child molesters and drug dealers running the country...

Alex, do you have an opinion you wish to share with the class? Go ahead, don't keep it inside.

[Lynn Eades]

That other A.B. (Alexander Graham Bell) isn't he the guy who stole all those good ideas from Tessler?

[Ed Storey]

Here is an image of a Saracen that was sitting outside of Bovington Tank Museum in 1984.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...aracencopy.jpg

[Robin Craig]

Reading my latest library acquisition, "Alvis Saracen Family" by Bill Munro, thoughtfully given to me by my 6 year old god daughter for Christmas, I read about early cold weather testing here in Canada.

It was carried out between November 1956 and March 1957 in Fort Churchill, Manitoba.

The book makes reference to the vehicle sent being 05 BB 43.

This may be the one in the Science and Tech museum collection.

Ed Storey, may I please use your picture to post in another forum please?

R

[rob love]

Early in the thread there was mention that this Saracen may have had radar equipment mounted on top of it. I recall, in the manual "New equipment for the Cdn Army", a small red booklet from the early 60s, that there was an entry for radar equipment mounted on a vehicle. The early version of the manual had the radar mounted on a Bobcat, and a later version (after the cancellation of the Bobcat project) of the pamphlet showed a British vehicle (if I recall correctly) with the radar mounted on it. Does any body have this manual, and was it possibly one of these two saracens we are talking about?

It has been a few years since I saw a copy of the manual, so I may be way off to left base here.

[malcolm erik bogaert]

I had a similar saracen it had been fitted with the Roberts radar System and been used in Gibraltar by an RA unit...as a pont of interest there are about 4 saracens in Montes Yard in County-Durham UK two of which are the higher command versions..cheers malcolm

[Ed Storey]

Robin:

Sure you can use the image to post on another site.

Rob:

CAMT 21-40 Characteristics of New Equipments with Notes on Their Tactical Handling and Employment (Provisional) 1962 covers the AN/MPQ 501 Canadian Counter Mortar Radar and shows it mounted on a Bobcat, FV603 and a M135CDN. I have multiple copies of this manual and not every edition has this section as these books were designed to be amended as new equipment came and went.

The image of the FV603 is heavily half-toned and shows a modified vehicle with what looks like a generator mounted on the rear left side. From what I can determine the vehicle registration number is 30BA52.

ED

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Ed.

Here is picture of a British Saracen with a Decca radar mounted on it. It is the higher version, the FV610 ACV, used by Gun Positioning Officer (GPO) in Artillery units. This pic is from 1962.

[Robin Craig]

Only ten years on but here we go updating this thread, bear with me as we are re posting Ed Storey's pictures from earlier that are not accessible as photobucket got a hole in the pail. I have important info after the repost of the pictures.

And also the Prefair picture just added.

So here we go, with thanks to Ed Storey of Ottawa.

[Robin Craig]

So the nugget of information that the Saracen was alleged to to be at the Canadian Museum of Science and Technology (CMST) in their reserve collection has rattled around my head for a good number of years now.

I no longer live in Ottawa and trips to that town are less frequent and making appointments and travelling for a specific purpose gets awkward so I have not ferreted the vehicle out, until recently.

I was waiting for a supplier to perform a task and I was spinning my wheels, so I dropped by the CMST admin office and defeated the impervious exterior and the no doorbell ploy and made multiple phone calls on the provided office phone in the lobby (who can afford a reception desk these days) until I reached a human and pleaded my case.

Human first person interaction was quickly achieved with Gordon Perrault who is the Director of Conservation and Collection Service. He was very pleasant and despite my lack of an appointment was very willing to help me as he realised that being from out of town and my employment vagaries hindered that.

He arranged for staff member Phillip Craig, an Artifact Handler to escort me through the reserve collection and show me the vehicle, which while he wasn't sure about Phillip reassured him they very much had and he knew about it.

I then went to the storage facility and met with Phillip who was a very pleasant and knowledgeable gentleman, not surprising as he shares my last name.

The CMST is in a state of change and rebirth as the new museum has recently opened and the reserve collection will also move there into a new storage facility in the coming months / year.

We passed many significant artifact as we walked and squeezed past items under wraps I recognised many from visits many years ago. He switched lights on as we went deeper into the depths. Finally we arrived at a very dusty lump under plastic. It was the Saracen.

I was giddy as the proverbial school boy and started discussing and explaining the base vehicle as Phillip wrestled with the huge sheet of plastic and the the cover under that. Obviously it was fairly hemmed in and photos were not the best. However Phillip said he had at least one picture in the online museum catalogue but there may also be other shots on the museums own data base he could let me have for use on the forum and elsewhere with credit.

Once back in his office he found the photos and emailed them to me.

These pictures were taken during a shuffle a few years ago and the vehicle was not running. So, with credit to the Canadian Museum of Science and Technology and with my most sincere that to Gordon Perrault and Phillip Craig, here is the radar Saracen.

[Robin Craig]

The big number on the bottom of the images is the museum asset number which starts with the year of acquisition, formally now it is 1970.0157 but in those days photos didn't have the first two digits of the year, now they do.

My impression is that this was a very overloaded and cramped vehicle with the system mounted on top and all the technical bits stuffed inside and in the boxes on the sides.

To say overloaded and cumbersome would be accurate. What I did note was not one trace of any kind of CFR and the clear evidence of the Vehicle Registration Number from the UK MOD, 80 BA 52 on the nose and on the data plate.

[Robin Craig]

The pictures of the Saracen at Cohens and then later at Prefair are not very clear but Ed Storey had noted that it was 30 BA 07 and I have confirmed that through another means. Add to that the clearly visible 80 BA 52 for the one at CMST.

I spent some time once I got home cruising the net with Google and came up a winner unexpectedly.

The National Research Council of Canada has images online. Here are 80 BA 52 the one in CMST

[Robin Craig]

And more, this shot is quite important as it shows something significant, in my view, an Ontario licence plate 5559F.

[Robin Craig]

Also on the NRC site are pictures of the other Saracen, bingo, this is the Cohens / Prefair vehicle, which had the radar removed. More on that later.

So this is 30 BA 07 and has the Ontario plate of 11584F.

These Ontario plates explain why there was no CFR visible or holes for a CFR plate.

[Robin Craig]

The data plate for the base vehicle and that for the radar itself were both found in my visit and here they are.

My suspicion is that the second vehicle 30 BA 07 had the radar removed and it was put on to an M113 and now I need the picture I cant find it again, go figure. I would speculate that the cost of doing this was big and only one was done and then something else came along as the new flavour of the time and things were shelved. It is pure speculation at this time.

[Bob Carriere]

HI Robin

There was a second Saracen at one time on the St Laurent rear compound.....strangely both middle wheel assembly/suspension had been removed although present nearby...... the inside, from the back door, was totally empty of any testing/radar equipment....... there was no top side antenna on that one....... and not far away was the original Bras D'Or hydrofoil slowly rotting away under multilayers of decaying tarps.

Security in the early 1970 was non existent....... the old Morrison Lamothe bread plant, which later became the Museum, was open to numerous dead end rail lines which were not gated.

Back then Osgoode had a yard with half a dozen Mosquitoes with the fuselage spine broken in two ...... Crown asset used a heavy steel plate suspended from a crane and let her drop...... cases of RR engines....... which were worthless due to their aluminum content that was cheap back then... a stack of engine exhaust manifold were rescued and eventually shipped to Australia.....then there was the junk yard in Kemptville which had two Churchill tanks.... bridge layers for seawalls.... one of which is at the CWM..... the other one was cut up for scrap......and tons of USA multifuel Coleman double ended aircraft tugs.... both tanks were complete with full Bedford engine packs and internal firing stations........

....and then you still had the whole Quebec side of the river with more yards to explore.... some were almost downtown.

Cheers

[rob love]

I have had a few dealings with the type of radar unit in question, the AN/MPQ501. I had a request from someone thru the chain of command wanting photos of the radar and of the APCs that had them mounted. I informed the requester that there was actually a AN/MPQ501 sitting about 40 feet form my desk, just outside the fire exit. I also drove one of the APCs that used to have the radar setup on it during my TQ3 course in Borden. I remembered it because the hatches were relocated.

He talked about coming out to the museum, but I pointed out to him that there is still a loose 501 sitting at the science and tech museum. I didn't know about the vehicle mounted one.

The 501 was touted as being fairly advanced when they first came out around 1957. The NRC had a few that they were trying to upgrade in the early to mid 60s. By the 70s, they were well past their prime, and eventually the radar units were removed from the carriers.

In the end, I was not able to help the fellow with any photos of the APC with the radar. He was especially interested n the topside. Does anyone here have any photos they would share?

[Ed Storey]

Here is an image of the AN/MPQ 501 and the final mounting configuration with the modifications to the upper hull of the M113A1CDN. This is not the photograph used in my Service Publications WoW book on the M113A1CDN nor my article in IMPS RT but gives a better view of the top hull.



Prior to the introduction of the M113A1CDN by the Canadian military the AN/MPQ 501 was intended to be mounted on the Bobcat and here is a concept photograph of that configuration.



COUNTER-MORTAR RADAR AN/MPQ-501

This Counter-Mortar Radar equipment was developed for the Canadian Army by the National Research Council and was production-engineered and produced by Raytheon Canada Limited. The AN/MPQ-501 equipment was a mobile microwave radar for the field forces designed to locate the source of hostile mortars, rockets, and other high-angle artillery. It also had demonstrated an ability to locate field artillery and provide rapid registration of counter gunfire. Designed for mounting on an armoured vehicle of the M113 and other types, the radar had a high degree of mobility, enabling it to move rapidly to site, perform its function, and then quickly move away. The air transportability of this equipment, when mounted on such an armoured vehicle, had been demonstrated by the RCAF when they transported tactical vehicular installations of this radar equipment non-stop to Europe from the RCAF Downsview airport in a C130 Hercules.

The AN/ MPQ-501 would perform the following functions:-
(a) Accurate location of hostile mortars and other high-angle artillery.
(b) Registration and adjustment of divisional artillery.
(c) Location of hostile ballistic rocket positions.
(d) Combat area surveillance.
(e) Survey of own and other positions.

Outstanding features of Radar AN/ MPQ-501
• 5 minutes into action and 2 minutes out of action-day or night.
• One man setup and operation without exposure.
• Fully automatic antenna levelling.
• Automatic loading and stowage.
• Automatic time insertion, beam centering and shifting.
• First round location.
• Simultaneous fire capabilities.
• True presentation of signal pairs to avoid confusion.
• Single beam extrapolation provided.
• Locations in both Cartesian and polar co-ordinates.
• Fall of shot corrections direct on counters.
• Fast automatic computer clearing between rounds.
• No trailer, no field cables-self-contained and powered on single armoured
vehicle allowing maximum mobility.
• Fully air-conditioned including N.B.C. protection.
• Frequency, power, noise figure and tuning monitored.

Raytheon Canada Limited was equipped to design, develop, and manufacture
high quality radar systems such as the AN/ MPQ-501, as well as communications radar equipment for airport and airways surveillance.

[Robin Craig]

This film link was shared by Colin Alford on another vehicle shown in it but inspection shows Saracen 02 BB 40 and some kind of Thornycroft truck on trial at around the 2 minute mark

I wonder where this footage was taken at? The concrete inclines and the Belgian Pave looks familiar doesn't it?

http://images.nfb.ca/images/pages/en...84&docAttId=34

[David Herbert]

My first thought is FVRDE Chertsey in the UK. There must have been similar facilities in Canada but I can't see why a prototype Thornycroft truck would have been shipped over.

The film as offered in the link is an odd mix of short bits of film with no real linkage between them. I think someone just collected clips with "military vehicles" and lumped them together.

David

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Not to mention a Centurion as well.
Rich.