Early war gun tractors

Keith Brooker · #1 22-01-11, 19:51

In British Army use. original photos from my collection. 2nd photo not too clear but of the same truck. Ford ?.

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 22-01-11, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Brooker

In British Army use. original photos from my collection. 2nd photo not too clear but of the same truck. Ford ?.

Chevrolet, actually (circular air vents left and right of the radiator shell).

Those are very early pictures, as the FAT is towing an 18-pdr.

Any clue on the date?

Keith Brooker · #3 22-01-11, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Any clue on the date?

Hi Hanno,
No date on the photo but i have other photos from the same unit 1939/40. Two photos of a SU COE Truck in British army use from same unit.
Keith

chalky · #4 24-01-11, 09:20

Great pics it has an England look about it , when did the British Army in UK first start getting CMP'S ?

Keith Brooker · #5 24-01-11, 10:22

Here are two Original photos from my collection. British RA unit.

I Think the photos were taken in the UK as the other photos i have from the same unit were taken in the uk. Rare photo of a SU COE truck in British Army use. [ sorry about the words across the photo, but they get used by others, there not cheap ].

Noel Burgess · #6 24-01-11, 20:23

Anybody know what the trailer is in Keith's first photo above, is it some kind of limber?

Noel

cliff · #7 24-01-11, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

Anybody know what the trailer is in Keith's first photo above, is it some kind of limber?

Looks like an 18Ib gun limber followed by the 18Lb gun looking at the photo.

Keith Brooker · #8 24-01-11, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliff

Looks like an 18Ib gun limber followed by the 18Lb gun looking at the photo.

photo of 18Pdr

Noel Burgess · #9 24-01-11, 23:33

Thanks - just seen the other posts on "In the background" thread; wasn't paying attention.
18ld gun - so would that make it very early in the war, say 1939-40? Didn't realise that the SU was around that early in the war.

Keith Brooker · #10 24-01-11, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

Thanks - just seen the other posts on "In the background" thread; wasn't paying attention.
18ld gun - so would that make it very early in the war, say 1939-40? Didn't realise that the SU was around that early in the war.

I thought it was later in the war, but would they still be towing that limber. you can see the limber behind the SU Coe if its a limber.

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 25-01-11, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

Thanks - just seen the other posts on "In the background" thread; wasn't paying attention.

I merged some postings from several threads into this one. Far to interesting to be "in the backgound"

Keith Brooker · #12 25-01-11, 12:02

one captured by the 8th army MEF from the Italians. Photo from my collection

CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé · #13 25-01-11, 16:36

It is most likely it is a number 24 artillery trailer or limber, with pneumatic tyres type (p).
Gilles

chrisgrove · #14 25-01-11, 23:03

I think you will find this is a No 29 artillery trailer or limber. for the 18 pounder. The No 24 was longer than this one and was the first limber for the 25 pounder, though normally seen with 18/25 pounders. However, this gun is a Martin Parry conversion (to pneumatic tyres) of the old, pole trail, version of the 18 pounder, so no way can it be an 18/25!

Everyone knows the No 27 limber, seen on almost every 25 pdr pic, but WWII saw also the Nos 24 (25 pdr), 26 and 30 (4.5 How), 29 (18 pdr) and another for the 3.7 How whose number I have not been able to work out. Some were just pneumatic tyred versions of the horse drawn originals (like the No 29).

Interesting pics. I wish you could see the gun behind the limber on the FWD!

Chris

Keith Brooker · #15 25-01-11, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisgrove

Interesting pics. I wish you could see the gun behind the limber on the FWD!

Close up of the limber, you can just see a part of the gun.

cliff · #16 26-01-11, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisgrove

Everyone knows the No 27 limber, seen on almost every 25 pdr pic, but WWII saw also the Nos 24 (25 pdr), 26 and 30 (4.5 How), 29 (18 pdr) and another for the 3.7 How whose number I have not been able to work out. Some were just pneumatic tyred versions of the horse drawn originals (like the No 29).

Chris (or anybody) would you happen to have photos or drawings of the different numbered limbers you name above? As you say the #27 limber for the 25lbder was the one most seen but I have rarely if ever seen the others.

Thanks for the info about them

Yeo.NT · #17 26-01-11, 01:04

I would date this a little later then 1939/40 becuse it would appear the CGT is a 12 cab. If you look close enough you can see the split of the hood

Bob Carriere · #18 26-01-11, 01:36

.... the external side expansion tank only appeared on cab 12.... not the 11 unless retro fitted.

serge · #19 27-01-11, 06:49

Hello

In a previous post , HANNO tells that on CAB 12 made by CHEVROLET the air vent had a circular shape while on FORD cab 12 the air vent were made with horizontal slide. I think that is truth on most trucks but I own a pic of a F60H with cab numer 12 and circular air vent.
Are the circular air vent generalized on CHEVY and horizontal slide air vent generalized on FORD?
Regards

Hanno Spoelstra · #20 27-01-11, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by serge

In a previous post , HANNO tells that on CAB 12 made by CHEVROLET the air vent had a circular shape while on FORD cab 12 the air vent were made with horizontal slide. I think that is truth on most trucks but I own a pic of a F60H with cab numer 12 and circular air vent.
Are the circular air vent generalized on CHEVY and horizontal slide air vent generalized on FORD?

Hello Serge,

Seeing the picture, I now understand the question you sent by e-mail. I have no explanation why a Ford cab would have circular air vents instead of the slotted ones they left the factory with. I guess possible explanations are:
1) when the truck was manufactured, there was a temporary shortage of cab parts and a Chevrolet radiator surround was fitted.
2) this F60H was damaged and a Chevrolet radiator surround was used to repair it;
Here's hoping someone comes up with a better explanation!

Regards,
Hanno

Bob Carriere · #21 28-01-11, 03:30

From the factory Ford had what the hot rodders call "louvres" or slits cut horizontal and Chev had circular screen covered round holes.

Nothing would prevent sheet metal from being swapped in forward repair stations or due to shipping losses assembled in England or Australia with what was available.

There is evidence of mix and match pieces on Ford archival pictures.... supporting the F15a with various GM front axles or even both axles being GM on a Ford..... evidence of hatches round and square being mixed as well as cab 11 with opening windshield of a cab 12.........

Almost anything is possible.... we have to remember that this was a planned parts flexibility when they asked Ford and GM to cooperate in designing the CMP.

How else can we explain the late 1944 Aussie PE 197-12 contracts that a week apart had circular guages in one and 1940 instrument clusters in the other..... or was it local workshop changes....

Bob

CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé · #22 31-01-11, 20:54

The Artillery Trailer No.24 Mark I, I have never seen one, the only thing I have is the 18 Pounder Ordonance Q.F. 25 Pr Mark I on Carriages, 25/18 Pr handbook.
This manual is dated 1940 and it only show the attached plate for the No.24.
If someone has picture or image of the No.24. 25. & 29 trailer please poste them.
UBIQUE

David_Hayward (RIP) · #23 01-02-11, 08:46

The Chevrolet GT at the top is obviously a # 12 cab, so was 1941/2 delivery. I am sure that the census numnber appears to start with an 'L' instead of an 'H'? The number seems to then '454' ETC. That would fit into:

H 4546194 to 4546693 supplied under S/M 2020 and also 2028/ British contract V/4299, which would have meant assembly in he UK.

chrisgrove · #24 09-02-11, 00:42

Guys

I will see what I have on these various artillery trailers, but it may take me a while to get organised!

Never say never! In the course of looking up some pics of the No 24 trailer, I came across a pic of (according to the caption) Canadian gunners training on the Martin Parry conversion of the pole trail 18 pounder - and the limbers are clearly the No 27. Mix and match was obviously the order of the day!

Chris

chrisgrove · #25 10-02-11, 00:05

Hi guys

If this works, you ought to see, or at least get a link to, some pics of the No 24 limber. As far as I can ascertain, this was in fact the first 25 pounder limber, thus the gun behind it should be an 18/25 pounder. However, numerous pics are captioned as 18 pounders. It is very hard (to me) to tell the difference on some of the versions, so I am not entirely sure!

Please note, I got all mixed up and called it the No 23 limber sometimes, and since it is on CD, I can't change it!

Chris

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...berno23-03.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...berno23-02.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...berNo24-01.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...berno23-04.jpg

CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé · #26 10-02-11, 22:27

Thanks Chris for the pictures now it is clear.
Gilles

mudeng · #27 11-02-11, 10:33

Looking at the photos, the gun being towed is the 4.5" Howitzer.
It has the Martin Parry conversion to fit pneumatic tyres.
The axletree was fitted with a stub axle on a "hanger", so a smaller diameter wheel could be fitted, but the gun remained at the same height.

It has a very distinctive cut out on the left to take the "bar sight".

The limber is also for the 4.5, and very distinctive, as it has two compartments, front and rear, with a horizontal bar, and vertical bars.

These Limbers, like the guns were adapted from WWI stocks.

From data I have, limbers were classified as follows:

Type 23 for the 3.7" Howitzer
Type 24 pre war use for the 18/25pdr, obsolete by 1940.
Type 27 replaced the type 24, and the most commom limber seen with the 25pdr.
Type 26, used for the 4.5" howitzer. similar to WWI pattern.
Type 29, used for the 18pdr, again, WWI pattern, fitted with pneumatic wheels.

How can I be sure, well Resicast are about to bring out 1/35th models of the equipment, and I made the masters for them, see attached.
Apologies for the "free publicity", but if any-one has any other info on these limbers as used in WWII, there are still a few minor details that need clarification.

Thanks

George

Keith Brooker · #28 11-02-11, 16:33

British Gun & Limber left in the Dunkirk area 1940. think there is a Austin in the background. Photo from my collection.

mudeng · #29 11-02-11, 17:44

Thanks Keith, nice one of the 18/25pdr.

From what I have seen, and I have quite a few photos taken around the Dunkirk evacuation period, and some show fields full of captured British guns, the type 27 limber, shown in your photo was the only one in service for the 18/25pdr. I have yet to see the type 24.

The type 24 was certainly used pre-war for this gun, and usually towed by the Morris CDSW "Toast-rack". There are numeropus shots of the Morris, abandoned in France, also, there are some shots of the Morris FAT and Guy FAT.

This is what makes this particular period with the BEF so fascinating. I think, during the retreat, anything and everything was used. I have one photo of a Morris FAT with 18 pdr, and evidence that the type 27 limber was also used for the 18 pdr.

The limbers I have done though were based on the drawings in the book by Len Trawin, it shows the limbers for the 18pdr and 4.5 howitzer, plus details from Fire-power Woolwich, has some details of those limbers in use with pneumatic wheels.

Most of what I have has come from the Bob Gregory collection, another BEF nut.

George.

Keith Brooker · #30 11-02-11, 20:47

Yes i am a BEF nut as well.