Revised 1942 S/M Contracts Listing

David_Hayward (RIP) · #1 20-03-03, 11:19

As a result of input on the Dodge side I have deciphered more of the Canadian contracts details from the DND papers from the Ottawa Archives. I am not sure how this will turn out but here goes. Note there are contract production numbers quoted in square brackets and also on the right side.

1942 CANADIAN MILITARY DELIVERIES TO BRITISH ORDERS TO
1 OCTOBER 1942

AUSTRALIA

SM 2104 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF/C298QF$
SM 2196 15-CWT. 4 X 4 101” W.B. C.15A
SM 2198 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L OR C.60L
SM 2199 FAT 4 X 4 101” W.B. F.-G.T OR C.-GT
SM 2202 15-CWT. 4 X 4 CHASSIS FORD OR CHEV OR DODGE?
SM 2203 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C.60L?
SM 2204 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C298QF E.g. # 3G42680 built 3/1/44
SM 2205 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L OR C.60L
SM 2206 F.A.T. 3-TON 4 X 4 101” W.B. C291QH # 13 Cab FAT No. 8???
SM 2208 MARMON-HERRINGTON
SM 2458 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. DODGE D60-L T-110-L-4 or L-5
SM 2459 15-CWT. 101” W.B. C291W
SM 2503 15-CWT. 4 x 4 101” W.B. F.15A or C.15A
SM 2504 15-CWT. 4 x 4 F.15A or C.15A
SM 2507 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L or C.60L
SM 2508 F.A.T. F.-GT. OR C.-GT.
SM 2510 3-TON 6 X 6 160” W.B.[60] C.60X

$ E.g. CHASSIS F-60448-M CAB 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 68048
ENGINE SERIAL 3G-20324-F
CONTRACT SM2104 BUILT MAR 17/42

In Australian Army service, this truck wore the ARN (Army Registered Number) of 53050.

BASRA

SM 2106 3-TON 4 X 4 G/S [400] C018QF

CEYLON

SM 2462 ½-TON 4 X 2 116” W.B. [6] DODGE T-112 DD-1

DUALA

SM 2409 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. [300] DODGE D60-L T-110-L-3, L-4 or L-5

EGYPT

SM 2037 3-TON 4 X 4 160” W.B. [6,847] MUST BE MIXED ORDER BETWEEN CHEVROLET 8443 AND 1543X2 AND FORD C018Q AND C098T
SM 2104 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. [9,682]* C.60L and F.60L/C018Q
SM 2145 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C.60L and C018Q
SM 2326 15-CWT. 4 X 2 128” W.B. FORD
SM 2409 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. DODGE D60-L T-110-L3, L-4 or L-5
SM 2456? 15-CWT. 4 X 2 128” W.B. FORD?
SM 2457 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C298QF and C.60L? [for UK (as well)]
SM 2458 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. DODGE D60-L T-110-L-4 or L-5
SM 2459 FORD 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. C291W
SM 2485 15-CWT. 4 X 2 128” W.B. DODGE D.60L
SM 2474 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. }C298QF and C.60L
SM 2475 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. } presumed
SM 2540 15-CWT. 4 X 2 128” W.B. FORD?
SM 2577 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C.60L [also for U.K.]
SM 2666 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. DODGE D.60L
SM 2669 3-TON 4 X 2 MT FORD MCP also for UK

*SM 2104 WAS SUBMITTED 2 JULY 1941 TO CANADA AND COMPRISED 10,000 3-TON LORRIES SIMILAR TO SM 2019 FORD AND CHEVROLET WITH 10.50 X 20 GENERAL PURPOSE TYRES PACKS CKD, NOTE CKD, FOR ASSEMBLY IN INDIA AND SOUTH AFRICA. THE DESTINATIONS MUST HAVE CHANGED BY AUTUMN 1942.

INDIA

SM 2136 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. MCP??
SM 2140 3-TON 6 X 4 160” W.B. C010QF [F.60H] BRKDOWN?
SM 2141 3-TON 6 X 4 160¼” W.B. [126] C010QF [F.60H] BRKDOWN?
SM 2142 A.T. 4 X 4 101” W.B. C291QH? 480
SM 2237 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. F.15 and or C.15 3,264
SM 2238 15-CWT. 4 X 2 115” W.B. CHEVROLET 1311X3? 1,200
SM 2241 30-CWT 4 X 2 134½ “ W.B. FORD MCP? 144
SM 2243 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. CC60L/X3? 5,256
SM 2244 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B.} F.60L and C.60L? 2,026
SM 2245 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B.} 450
SM 2246 STATION WAGONS FORD C11AD?
SM 2247 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. F.15 and or C.15 2,500
SM 2248 15-CWT. 4 X 2 114” W.B. FORD? 1,920
SM 2249 3 - 4 TON 4 X 2 122” W.B. FORD? 350
SM 2251 3-TON 4 X 2 158” W.B. C298TFS? 2,112
SM 2252 F.A.T. 4 X 4 101” W.B. F.G.T. and or C.-G.T. 1,056
SM 2253 3-TON 6 X 4 160” W.B. [72] C010QF [F.60H] BRKDOWN?
SM 2254 3-TON 6 X 4 160” W.B. [75] C010QF [F.60H] BRKDOWN?
SM 2256 F.A.T. 4 X 4 C291QH? 480
SM 2263 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. CC60L/X3 1,476
SM 2264 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. [500] C60L
SM 2265 3-TON 4 X 2 158” W.B. C010QF 420
SM 2266 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F60L? 1,000
SM 2267 15-CWT. 4 X 2 C15? 1,500
SM 2369 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. C15? 1
SM 2532 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF OR C298QF 288
SM 2534 3-TON 4 X 2 136” W.B. FORD? MCP 2,112
SM 2537 8-CWT. 4 X 4 [228] C011DQF F.8A!!!
SM 2538 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF 612
SM 2555 8-CWT. 4 X 4 [1] C8A HUP

MOMBASA

SM 2462 ½–TON 4 X 2 116” W.B. DODGE T-116 DD-1
SM 2463 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. C101WF
SM 2464 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF
SM 2467 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF
SM 2468 1-TON 4 X 2 133” W.B. FORD?
SM 2469 3-TON 4 X 4 134” W.B. C29QF?
SM 2649 MISCELLANEOUS

NEW ZEALAND

SM 2145 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF
SM 2210 3-TON 4 X 2 136” W.B. CC60XL/X2?
SM 2388 FORDORS 1942 FORD? SEDANS
SM 2390 3-TON 4 X 4 101” W.B. C291QR(F)?
SM 2395 30-CWT. 4 X 4 134” W.B. [672] F.15 and or C.15
SM 2398 1-TON 4 X 2 120” W.B. DODGE T-116 DD-2?
SM 2459 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. C101WF

SIERRE LEONE

SM 2409 3-TON 4 X 2 160” W.B. [600] DODGE D60-L T-110-L-3, L-4 or L-5
SM 2610 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. [2] C298QF?

SINGAPORE

SM 2104 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF

SOUTH AFRICA

SM 2356 3-TON 4 X 2 158” W.B. EC098T or C298TFS
SM 2368 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L and/or C.60L
SM 2369 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. F.15 and/or C.15
SM 2370 F.A.T. 4 X 4 F.-GT and/or C.-G.T. 141
SM 2371 STATION WAGONS FORD?
SM 2457 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF F.60L
SM 2462 ½ -TON 4 X 2 116” W.B. DODGE T-116 DD-1
SM 2597 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L and/or C.60L
SM 2598 30-CWT. 4 X 4 134” W.B. F.30 and/or C.30
SM 2599 15-CWT. 4 X 2 F.15 and/or C.15 E.g. # XG8421160??

UNITED KINGDOM

SM 2112 3-TON 4 X 2 176” W.B. ????? 160
SM 2189 3-TON 4 X 2 134” W.B. [1,484] FORD?
SM 2210 3-TON 4 X 2 136” W.B. [1,328] CC.60L/X2
SM 2563 8-CWT. 4 X 4 C.8A HU 13
SM 2564 15-CWT. 4 X 4 [690] C.15A 1488
SM 2566 15-CWT. 4 X 4 101 W.B. C.15A 109
SM 2567 30-CWT. 4 X 4 134” W.B. C.30 173
SM 2568 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. [46] C.60L [CENSUS C.30!] 46
SM 2570 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C.60L 1728
SM 2573 30-CWT. 4 X 4 134” W.B. C.30 48
SM 2574 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C.60L 32
SM 2619 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. [21] C.60L 20
SM 2752 30-CWT. 4 X 4 [1] C.30 1

WEST AFRICA

SM 2601 3-TON 4 X 2 134” W.B. [16] CHEVROLET 1533?

Any assistance with deciphering more will be appreciated please.

Keith Orpin · #2 20-03-03, 14:25

Hi David,
You commented on my thread recently, about finding out information on vehicle markings. Can I just express my thanks over your depth of knowledge regarding contract details.I realise we all have in some way or other helped with information regarding these vehicles, but I for one am grateful that this information has now been collated and pulled together by yourself.
BTW, I did'nt realise that mine was 1 of 48 units under Contract No SM2573, for some reason I thought there were 96 units on this particular contract. Does this imply that the other 48 units were supplied in 1943?
Best Regards
Keith

Hanno Spoelstra · #3 20-03-03, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
INDIA
SM 2142 A.T. 4 X 4 101” W.B. C291QH? 480
SM 2256 F.A.T. 4 X 4 C291QH? 480
SM 2537 8-CWT. 4 X 4 [228] C011DQF or C291QH?

David,

Thanks for quoting this list here!

I do not know what the "H" stands for but C291QH were probably FAT chassis/cowls, bodied locally in India as the "Indian pattern FAT".

Regards,
Hanno

David_Hayward (RIP) · #4 20-03-03, 18:36

"Census # H 4999629 to 4999724 SM 2573 TRACTOR 4 X 4 LT. AA ARTICIZED

E.g. C.30- 444-M LAAT 2 Serial # 2844122313 Built 20/8/42

E.G. H 4999629 IWM PHOTO KID 1416" ...note that there is an Imperial War Museum photo # KID 1416 taken at Kidbrooke, South-east London of one of these contracts. It would appear then that the balance of the contract was supplied October 1942 onwards.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #5 20-03-03, 18:43

2844100619
2844200771S ENGINE # [WR?] 3,867,384 Army No 71602 WO66 [SYDNEY-ASSEMBLED?]
2844100849
2844106408 W.D. # CZ 4219248
2844106422
2844108270
2844111733 ENGINE # WR3,811,162
2844120949 ENGINE # WR3,832,491
2844121091
2844121124
2844122077
2844122244
2844122313 ENGINE # WR3,811,232
2844122319
2844126020
2844129076
2844129454
2844137798
2844137914
2844138366
2844138727
2844138735
2844160600

KNOWN LAAT:
GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-44
SERIAL 2844111733
ENGINE 3811162 BODY SERIAL 406
TRIM WR PAINT F.C.98

I should have altered the listing because in fact we now know that S/M 2537 was for the F8A trucks...apart from the prototype # 12 Cab these [#13 Cab?] units were possibly the only F8A trucks ever built.

Keith Webb · #6 20-03-03, 20:49

Frfom my database http://www.oldcmp.net/infoex.html I also note these contracts..

S/M OR C/D 2019
F60L Cab 12 16816 engine 2G43522F

S/M OR C/D 2126
F60L Cab 12 28515 engine 2G7785F

S/M OR C/D 2127
F60L Cab 12 30834 engine 3G7606

The S/M 2204 truck you quote is still in existence and is the F60L at Corowa in the "Year of the Blitz" video.

Can you explain the E52 prefix, 211 prefix and similar Australian contracts, David?

Hanno Spoelstra · #7 21-03-03, 10:30

David, here's some more on rear-engined chassis:

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward

AUSTRALIA
SM 2206 F.A.T. 3-TON 4 X 4 101” W.B. C291QR(F)?

The only rear-engined chassis I can think of is the GM Canada Model 8446 chassis imported for the Rhino Heavy Armoured Car.

Source: http://www.users.bigpond.com/ROD_DIERY/AUSTCARS.html

Quote:

NEW ZEALAND
SM 2390 3-TON 4 X 4 101” W.B. C291QR(F)?

R stands for rear engined, F for right-hand drive. C291QR chassis were supplied for the construction of the Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, NZ pattern. These were not C291QRF, as the C291QR had a centrally mounted steering column.

But I don't see a reference to either C011QRF, C191QRF or C291QR chassis delivered to India for the Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern. Can you explain, please?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #8 21-03-03, 12:17

Hanno,

Thanks as always for your incredible input. I would be honoured to meet you and perhaps Dirk in due course when we get out over to the Netherlands in our new Honda.

1. Regarding the Australian FAT Rear-engined: note this was supposed to be a Field Artillery Chassis, and yet the official description albeit of the original model was "Rear-Engine Armoured Car" [Ford Model C011QRF...my square brackets]. I could not decide therefore after reading your reasoned and authoratitive note whether the Australians had ordered any FATs. Then I remembered that this point had already been discussed on the old forum. Because my PC crashed I lost all unsaved data. This file has been a casualty...I think we agreed before that this chassis was a Ford C291Q, # 13 Cab as per THE HISTORY OF FORD IN AUSTRALIA, P. 109, Australian design No. 8, on the F-GT chassis. So I was wrong, and will amend thje original posting. AMENDMENT HERE: the C291QH was the Royal Engineers' FAT-based truck chassis as used in India, but I seem to remember that it was thought that the 1942 3-ton FAT chassis for Australia was the same model, so can I correct that to C291QH please?

2. I am totally indebted for your reminding me of Rod's comments on the Rhino..Norm Darwin, my friend, states that there were 132 built . Now I confess I had no idea that they used the 8446 chassis, and so I am adding this information to my database. Sorry Rod, and thanks.

3. As to the final Rear-engined chassis, although the steering was central, my information has it that the model designation was C291QR(F), with the "F" in parentheses. The only other case of this suffix I can find is the C011Q(F)..now this was originally C011QF but as we know the "F" was dropped in some cases from 1942 and the 1943 Models that I know of lacked the "F" suffix as well. It is worth looking into again and I will do so, as the query arises as to whether the (F) applied to the right-hand steer chassis and was not applicable to the central-steered chassis. A similar query has arisen with regards to the C298QFS(Special) 4 x 4 F60L for India. Was the "(Special") a temporary or official addition to the "S" suffix?

4. I was totally stumped when you asked me why there were no references to rear-engined chassis for India. I ran through all the permutations in my mind, and then I decided that the answer lay in that the orders were for "Rear-Engine Armoured Car", and thus were not covered by S/M 2XXX and 6XXX series Ministry of Suply contracts! This did not apply to the GM of Canada Otter chassis nor the C15TA series....the Otter was to S/M 2424 which is the exception to the rule it seems. Up until the Otter, which was a "Reconnaisance Car", the Fox and Chevrolet Staghounds were orderded under the S/M 1XXX series as Armoured vehicles. So, the Canadian "B" Vehicle listing I sucked up after a lot of research of a file from Ottawa did not cover Ministry of Supply contracts for the Rear-engined Armoured Car chassis. Further, if the chassis were ordered by the INDIAN Government as against the UK, then they would have been referred to in a seperate file. This then requires me to check the Archives index to see whether there are any former DND files for Indian contracts. Of course Australian contracts are not in the file either. I am going to ask Norm if he knows anything about the E52 and 211 prefixes Keith...more work to be done!

Note BASRA destination...now we know where that is of course!

David_Hayward (RIP) · #9 21-03-03, 12:34

L 773980 to 7741532 Contract SM 2019 and V 4288
Built by April 1941
Included 2G-14877-F
/14658-F
/14881-F
/14685-F
/14909-F
/15125-F
/14474-F
/14564-F
/15056-F
/14463-F
/15165-F
/14682-F
/15058-F
/14855-F
/15149-F
/14349-F
These were all written off in that crash at a railroad crossing in Canada that I mentioned on the old forum.
These [assembled!] vehicles were models EC018Q, note the "E" prefix because they were built up in Dagenham Plant, which was a unique prefix for this type of truck, apart from the succeding contract S/M 2037. It would appear that a large portion of the contract was assembled and then shipped out to the Mid-East and then issued to the AIF.

"Lorry 3 ton 4x4 GS [CHASSIS & CAB]; 3 ton 4x4 B/Down and 3 ton 4 x 4 Workshop"

Hanno Spoelstra · #10 24-03-03, 10:09

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Thanks as always for your incredible input. I would be honoured to meet you and perhaps Dirk in due course when we get out over to the Netherlands in our new Honda.

David, it would be my pleasure to meet you and your wife. My input into this forum is nowhere near what you as an Automotive and Military Historian are digging up from archives. There is still a lot to learn from you, and it is your inquisitive mind that triggers me to dig into my meagre references.

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
AMENDMENT HERE: the C291QH was the Royal Engineers' FAT-based truck chassis as used in India, but I seem to remember that it was thought that the 1942 3-ton FAT chassis for Australia was the same model, so can I correct that to C291QH please?

"the C291QH was the Royal Engineers' FAT-based truck chassis as used in India"?!? Please elaborate!
All I know is what the late Peter Ford told me: "...C291QR RE vehicles being sent to India in 1943 - I don't know what the R types were".

David_Hayward (RIP) · #11 24-03-03, 11:27

1940 Engines were prefixed:
MODEL
01A Passenger 1A1 l.h.d. and 1A2F r.h.d.
01A Commercial 1B1 and 1B2F
01T Truck 1C1 and 1C2F
09A Mercury Passenger 1D1 and 1D2F
09C Mercury-engined Commercial 1E1 and 1E2F
09T Mercury-engine Truck 1G1 and 1G2F
022A Passenger 1H1 and 1H2F
022C Commercial 1I1 and 1I2F
022T Truck 1J1 and 1J2F

1941 and onwards Models had “2”, “3”, “4” prefixes in front of the 1940-type code

"Ford C.M.P. vehicles used engines from both Canadian and United States factories although the Canadian engines were far more common. All Canadian-built Ford engines in C.M.P. trucks are prefixed with "G" and suffixed with ‘2F’. The prefix number denotes the engine model year, e.g. 1G is 1940, 2G is 1941, etc.: the ‘G’ denotes a Mercury 32.50 h.p. truck engine fitted with a four-speed gearbox. The suffix ‘2F’ means an export engine for Right hand drive vehicles. Starting number was # 1G-175 on 1 November 1939, and the last 1940 Model unit was # 1G-11500 on 1 October 1940; 1941 Models started at # 2G-205 on 1 October 1940 and ended at # 2G-48148 on 1 November 1941. The last known, so far, engine number is from a late 1945 F.60L, # 5G-11449F [a 1944 Model unit].

David_Hayward (RIP) · #12 24-03-03, 11:29

FORD MODEL NUMBERS
Dagenham-assembled but “W” for “War Department” prefixes. Diverted Romania orders had “R” prefixes, e.g. R01T
W0A1 Ford V-8 3.6 3-spd 9’ 0” saloon staff car
W0C1 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 9’ 4” 8-cwt.
W0A2 Ford V-8 3.6 3-spd 9’ 0” 4 door estate car
W0T2H Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 8’ 10” 15-cwt. G.S. & Office bodies
W0T3 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11’ 11” 30-cwt.
W0T6 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11’ 11” 3-ton 4 x 4; Forward-Control
W0T8 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11’ 11” 30-cwt. 4 x 4; Forward-Control
W0T9 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd CAPLAD prototype rear-engined based on W0T6 chassis

WOT2 A GS infantry truck aeroscreens and a sheeted rear body (no tilt frame)

WOT2 B As the A model but with a tilt frame covered rear body referred to as a van body

WOT2 C evolution of the A model, but still with aeroscreens and other small changes.

WOT2 D as the B model, but with windscreen changes again. Still tilt frame and cover...

WOT2 E Infantry truck, fully enclosed cab and full windscreen, wooden body, tilt frame and cover.

WOT2 F As E but without the tilt frame and cover and with a steel body. Still titled infantry truck

WOT2 H Appears similar to the to the E model but possibly with out the tilt frame and cover.

CANADIAN-BUILT FORD VEHICLES
“C” prefixes indicated “Canada”, but “E” before the “C” indicated Dagenham-assembled

FORD (engines referred to as “Ford Mercury”): the official Ford model numbers changed in 1942 as shown.

Pre-1942 model numbers:
C01QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 30-cwt. 4 x 4 Model F-30444 and F.30
C01QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 model F-60444 and F60S.
C010QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 3-ton 6 x 4 F-60640-M and F60H
C011DF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 8-cwt. model F-8421 and F8
C011DQ Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd. 8’ 5” 8-cwt. model F-8441 and F8A
C011QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 artillery tractor model F-60441 and F. -G.T
C011QRF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 REAR-ENGINED for India C191QRF [1941] Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 REAR-ENGINED for India
C011WQF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. 4 x 4 model F-15441 and F15A
C018QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 model F-60448 and F60L
C098TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton model F-60428C and FC60L; this model was a modified civilian type
EC098TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 3-ton original designation of C098TFS model F-60428-C and FC60L; this model was a modified civilian type assembled by Dagenham
C101WF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. model F-15421 and F15
C11ADF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 9’ 6” Heavy Utility (4-door estate car) model numbers not given (possibly FHU421 and F8)

Where “C” = “Canada”; “E” = “England”; “R” = “Romania”; “0” = 1940 Model Year; “1” = engine type [85-bhp V-8] or “9” for 1941 with 95 b.h.p; “1” = wheelbase [101 inch]; “Q” four-wheel drive; “R” = rear-mounted engine’ “F” = right-hand drive.

Model numbers 1942 onwards:
C29ADF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 9’ 6” 4 door estate (ex model C11ADF) model numbers not given (possibly FHU421 and F8)
C29Q Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 30-cwt. 4 x 4; (ex model C01QF) model F-30444 and F30 AND ALSO F.60S?
C29QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 30-cwt. 4 x 4 (A/A variant)
C291D Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 8-cwt. (ex model C011DF) model F-8421 and F8
C291Q Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 artillery tractor (ex model C011Q(F) model F60441 and F-GT
C291QH Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd. 8’ 5” 4 x 4 F.A.T. for Royal Engineers exported to India
C291QR(F) Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 4 x 4 REAR-ENGINED central drive
C291W Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. (ex model C101WF) model F-15421 and F15
C291WQ Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 8’ 5” 15-cwt. 4 x 4 (ex model C011WQF) model F-15441 and F15A
C291Q 15-cwt. without winch, as e.g. C291Q.L-1 and C291Q. L-W
C298QF Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 (ex model C018QF)
C298QFS (Special) Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 F60L for India
C298TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton (ex-model C098TFS) model F-60428C and FC60L; this model was a modified civilian type
C29WFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2 ¼ ” 3-ton replaced model C298TFS in [1944?] and 1945 model F-60424M and F602S # 43 CAB
C298WFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 13’ 2” 3-ton replaced model C298TFS in [1944?] and 1945 model F-60428M and F602L # 13 CAB
C395Q Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 9’ 7” 6-ton 4 x 4 artic unit + trailer (non-detachable) model (none) and F60T
C39QB Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 11’ 2” 3-ton 4 x 4 Bofors model (none) and F60B

David_Hayward (RIP) · #13 24-03-03, 11:44

Thanks Hanno, but you know a lot more than I do! Please do not be too modest.

I am trying to remember whether "H" or "W" stood for "Winch-equpped", and ["H"?] "non-Winch". The information I have that was handed down to me was that the C291QH was a F-GT chassis for the RE for India. The C291QR would in theory be the right-hand drive 1942 rear-engined chassis....these were then bodied in say Bombay?

We have still not resolved thre query about:
S/M 6337 Ford Model Number C291Q.L.-1
S/M 6389 Ford Model Number C291WQ / C291Q.L-W E.g. # 5G-420-F 11/1945

which were based on the F15A chassis...did we agree that the "W" related to "Winch"?

Hanno Spoelstra · #14 26-03-03, 13:50

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
3. As to the final Rear-engined chassis, although the steering was central, my information has it that the model designation was C291QR(F), with the "F" in parentheses. The only other case of this suffix I can find is the C011Q(F)..now this was originally C011QF but as we know the "F" was dropped in some cases from 1942 and the 1943 Models that I know of lacked the "F" suffix as well. It is worth looking into again and I will do so, as the query arises as to whether the (F) applied to the right-hand steer chassis and was not applicable to the central-steered chassis.

David,

The F definitely was applicable to the right-hand, not to the central-drive chassis. Could it be possible the F in parentheses meant it was an option? I.e. both the C291QRF right-hand drive chassis and C291QR central-drive chassis were available?
Dropping the F in the chassis designation code was possibly done because by that time chassis were right-hand drive by default, but it did not help in clearing up matters where chassis were actually not right-hand drive. When dropping the F, they should have substituted another code for the left- or central-drive chassis. Is there any indication this was done?

A good example of this confusion are the chassis supplied to NZ: as the NZ pattern Wheeled Armoured Carrier were a variation on the Indian Pattern Armoured Carrier, the first few were built on C191QRF chassis sourced from India. The Indian Pattern Mk's II and III had right-hand steering (see pictures in the Old Forum thread "Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)"), hence the drivers position on the first NZ Pattern ones was on the right too. But when the C291QR chassis NZ ordered in Canada (SM 2390) arrived, it turned out that these were central and not right-hand drive chassis. The design of the armoured body thus had to be altered with the driver's visor moved to the centre line of the Carrier. On the C291QR chassis, India designed the Mk.IV Wheeled Carrier with a radically changed hull front (see picture in the Old Forum thread "Wheeled Armoured Carrier in Afghanistan").

Note: there is a thread "India Pattern Carriers" on this forum also.

Interesting stuff this is, let's keep digging.
Hanno

David_Hayward (RIP) · #15 26-03-03, 15:36

Hanno, thanks...we will have to keep digging. The query arises as to whether QR was the Central Drive and QRF the Right-hand drive. Of course come 1942 Model Year Windsor seems to have dropped the "F" suffix in some cases anyway.

Hanno Spoelstra · #16 26-03-03, 17:41

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The information I have that was handed down to me was that the C291QH was a F-GT chassis for the RE for India.

So you don't have any further info? Pictures? A contact who can tell us more about CMP assembly and/or use in India?

Quote:

We have still not resolved the query about:
S/M 6337 Ford Model Number C291Q.L.-1
S/M 6389 Ford Model Number C291WQ / C291Q.L-W E.g. # 5G-420-F 11/1945

which were based on the F15A chassis...did we agree that the "W" related to "Winch"?

Chassis s/n CK-236140 / engine s/n 5G-420-F is a November 1945 C291Q.L-W, built under S/M 6389. Popularly dubbed "F22", we know from surviving examples these are 101" three-ton chassis without winch, bodied as GS cargo or Water Tank trucks. I don't know what "L" or "W" stands for; possibly the latter stands for Water Tank?

:

David_Hayward (RIP) · #17 26-03-03, 18:11

"Light-weight"??I think that we can safely confirm that "W" prefix = "Winch" so I discount that ...."L" may have stood for "Less [Winch]", as per C291Q. L-1, and C291Q. L-W as Hanno suggests, same but for "Water tank". I have conjected that the chassis was Model C291Q, although C291QL is also possible, although we have noted of course the "." full stop between "Q" and "L" on build plates, and this may just have been an assembly plant designation. If I remember rightly from the description of the "F22" the end result varied considerably from the F15A and thus C291Q would signify a different model chassis altogether.

Yes, I do know of THE person who can tell us I think. Her name is Sandra, aka Sandy, Notarianni, Ford of Canada's Historical Consultant in Oakville, Ontario. She is a Briton by birth and she and my mother share a common christian/forename.

I must contact her again..I have lost her e mail address but know her Snail Mail one.

Sandra Notarianni
Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd.
Historical Department
PO Box 2000
Oakville, Ontario
L6J 5E4
Canada
(work) 905-845-2511, extension 1562
(fax) 905-845-5467

Hanno Spoelstra · #18 27-03-03, 18:32

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I have conjected that the chassis was Model C291Q, although C291QL is also possible, although we have noted of course the "." full stop between "Q" and "L" on build plates, and this may just have been an assembly plant designation.

Assembly plant designation?!? Similar to the X-for-export codes? That's an interesting viewpoint! You surely have a nice example on how this was done on General Motor trucks, don't you?

Quote:

If I remember rightly from the description of the "F22" the end result varied considerably from the F15A and thus C291Q would signify a different model chassis altogether.

Correct, from what we know it basically was an FGT chassis, but without winch.

Quote:

Yes, I do know of THE person who can tell us I think. Her name is Sandra, aka Sandy, Notarianni, Ford of Canada's Historical Consultant in Oakville, Ontario.

I have e-mailed Ford Canada asking them to put me in contact with her.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #19 27-03-03, 20:49

GENERAL MOTORS OVERSEAS PLANT CODES
By TOM KRILL

XA GENERAL MOTORS LIMITED, HENDON, LONDON, ENGLAND, APRIL 1923 TRUCKS/MAY 1924 CARS/MARCH 1925 CAR AND TRUCK BODIES

XB GENERAL MOTORS INTERNATIONAL A/S, KØBENHAVEN, DENMARK, ANNOUNCED October 1923, IN PRODUCTION January 1924

XC GENERAL MOTORS ARGENTINA, BUENOS AIRES, April 1924

XD GENERAL MOTORS CONTINENTAL S.A., ANTWERP, BELGIUM, March 1925

XE GENERAL MOTORS DO BRASIL, S.A., SÂO PAULO, BRAZIL, September 1925

XF GENERAL MOTORS G.m.b.H., WAREHOUSE IN HAMBURG, September 1925, TRUCK ASSEMBLY 8 April 1926, then Berlin, then Karlsruher, Berlin.

General Motors GmbH
Charlottenburger Strasse 63/85
Berlin - Borgiswalde

XG GENERAL MOTORS SOUTH AFRICAN PTY. LIMITED, ELIZABETHTOWN, [LATER PORT ELIZABETH], August 1926

XH GENERAL MOTORS NEW ZEALAND LIMITED, PETONE, NEW ZEALAND, October 1926

XI? GENERAL MOTORS URUGUYA, MONTIVEDO, November 1926 the REGIONAL HQ was located in the Arijon Building, Montevideo, Uruguay by September 1927.

XJ TO XN? [NEVER USED] GENERAL MOTORS (AUSTRALIA) PTY. LIMITED, 1 November 1926:
Adelaide
Brisbane
Melbourne
Perth
Sydney

XO? GENERAL MOTORS JAPAN, OSAKA, April 1927

XP? U.A.C. OF NIGERIA LIMITED, LAGOS? 1927

XQ GENERAL MOTORS JAVA, JAKARTA, May 1927

XR? Not known

XS GENERAL MOTORS NØRDISKA, STOCKHOLM, 26 January, 1928

XT GENERAL MOTORS INDIA, BOMBAY, December 1928

XU? GENERAL MOTORS POLSCE w Sp. Zo o, WARSAW, September 1928

XV? GENERAL MOTORS (FRANCE) S.A., LE HAVRE, 1931 to April 1932?

XW? GENERAL MOTORS PENINSULAR, BARCELONA, SPAIN 1932

XX? GENERAL MOTORS SUISSE, S.A., BIENNE, February 1936

XX? GENERAL MOTORS NEAR EAST, S.A., ALEXANDRIA., TRUCK ASSEMBLY, 1936.

XY? GENERAL MOTORS DE MEXICO, TRUCK ASSEMBLY, 1936

DEALER ASSEMBLY, WARSAW, POLAND, 1937-39

GENERAL MOTORS (FRANCE) S.A., GENNEVILLIERS, January 1939

GENERAL MOTORS LIMITED, SOUTHAMPTON…NO CODE, December 1939, bombed 30 November 1940.

RANGOON, BURMA, T.U.P. ASSEMBLY, 1941, SEIZED 1942

David_Hayward (RIP) · #20 27-03-03, 20:56

X EXPORT DESTINATION CODES AFTER SERIAL NUMBERS:
X1 ANY POINT EXCEPT FULLY BUILT UP
X2 UNITED KINGDOM BUILT UP
X3 INDIA CKD
X4 AUSTRALIA CKD
X5 NEW ZEALAND CKD ALTHOUGH ASSEMBLED TRUCKS HAD “XH”
X6 BATAVIA, NETHERLANDS EAST INDIES CKD
X7 UNITED KINGDOM CKD
X8 ANY POINT CKD
X9 SOUTH AFRICA CKD ALTHOUGH ASSEMBLED CMP TRUCKS HAD “XG” E.G. XG8421 160 [NOW IN NAMIBIA]

Batavia was of course seized by the Japanese and then became a Toyota Plant although the Japs apparently seized and converted for their use various Chevrolet cars and trucks.

Example of X2 code:
MODEL 8421X2 1842102448 #11 CAB CZ 4241710*

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA [C.8]
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-20X2;
SERIAL.1842018573
ENGINE 3716534; BODY SERIAL 2459;
TRIM ZR PAINT F.C. 98

XH: ALL S/M 2394: [ASSEMBLED BY G.M. NEW ZEALAND]
XH8448-275 MFGD. 4 MAY 1943
XH8448-377 ENGINE # FR3,863,573 MFGD. 5 MAY 1943
XH8448-382 ENGINE # FR3,863,937 MFGD. 5 MAY 1943
XH8448-428 MFGD. 5 MAY 1943
XH8448-564 MFGD. 5 MAY 1943
XH8448-657 ENGINE # FR3,864,068 MFGD. 5 MAY 1943

XH8448-718 ENGINE # FR3,864,330 MFGD. 5 JUNE 1943
XH8448-834 MFGD. 5 JUNE 1943
XH8448-890 MFGD. 5 JUNE 1943

Facsimile of Buidl Plate on known C8AX:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA C8AX
CHASSIS MODEL C.15441
CAB MODEL 13
CHASSIS SERIAL XH8448-718
ENGINE SERIAL FR3864330
ORDER 2394
DATE OF MFG 5 JUNE 43

This seems to prove that GM New Zealand, Petone, near Wellington did indeed assemble two distinct batches.

Now this brings me on to something I had not considered much before, namely that GM South African of Port Elizabeth and GM New Zealand both received and assembled Canadian chassis and applied their own GMOO-allocated "X" codes as against using the GM of Canada serial number. Whether GM India of Bombay used "XT" I have no idea, though it is possible. Contrast this with GM-Holden's who used "S", "M", and "P" for "Sydney", "Melbourne" and "Perth" assembly respectively although "B" for "Brisbane" and "A" for "Adelaide" do not appear to have been used in my experience. The plant codes used were either added after the model number or at the end of the serial number [both Oshawa-allocated].

The original Plant addresses were:
City Road, Melbourne, Victoria
Bridge Street, Sydney, New South Wales
Wickham Street, Valley, Brisbane, Queensland
Corner Rann & Birkenhead Streets, Birkenhead, South Australia
Corner Buckland & Victoria Streets, Cottelsoe Beach, Western Australia but I have to check on the Melbourne address for the 1940's.

As regards Ford's plants, these were in Port Elizabeth, SA and Bombay, India as well as the Australian plants. These were all subsidiaries of Ford of Canada, itself a partial subsidiary only of Ford of the US.

Tony Smith · #21 02-05-04, 08:35

This contract falls approximately into the sequence of others listed by David, but is not listed for Australian delivery. The engine number and contract number suggest that this Ambulance might have been built or supplied in 1942, but the build date on the tag shows 2/3/45. Could it be as Keith suggested in Data plate mystery, and these were supplied with the chassis and details were applied upon assembly?

Tony Smith · #22 02-05-04, 08:40

I have seen this code quoted on 2 CMP's, and as mentioned by Keith that makes 3, any ideas, David?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #23 02-05-04, 11:28

The bottom one shows a 1943 Ford chassis to Australian order, but the top one is a real mystery! It's a new British Supply-Mechanical Demand to me..never seen S/M 2603 before. I have no record of it and yet it should be a 1942 one...the Engine Number/serial is a 1942 one.

Keith Webb · #24 02-05-04, 23:10

Hi Tony
Do you mind if I put these pics on my site (with a credit) please?
Do you have any pictures of the ambulance in the first data plate?

Keith Webb · #25 02-05-04, 23:44

This was the same contract as my old F60L which was built about 3 weeks before the one you have a pic of, Tony. It's chassis serial is 142038, which is 4,326 numbers earlier.
Serial 146570 of the same contract was built on October 3rd, 1944, and 149851 on Oct 20th. These were also F60L models.
Just goes to show the serials weren't always in line with build dates.
Do you have a database to incorporate?

Keith

Keith Webb · #26 02-05-04, 23:50

The Bandiana Army Museum has an ambulance with the same contract number:

Serial 121735 Built Jan 8 1945.

Keith Webb · #27 03-05-04, 00:33

http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/fgt/ph_fgt/fat441.m.jpg

David,

And here's another little bit of information...
The 7A2 body early pattern gun tractors are to be found in small numbers here... and here's the data plate info from a Chev cab 12. No contract though.
This info is from a rubbing:

Model: 84-407 (or 2)
Serial: 1844021385 (indistinct)
Engine: 3735940
Body Serial: 1373
Trim: XR
Paint: F.C. 102

It looks like the trim is probably the engine prefix in the wrong place.

On the 7A2 body there is also a number: 4112ME 1055.

Can you make any sense of this, David. The truck is a 1941 CGT.

Tony Smith · #28 03-05-04, 09:45

Quote:

Do you mind if I put these pics on my site (with a credit) please?

By all means, Keith, we're here to share!

Quote:

Do you have any pictures of the ambulance in the first data plate?

No, the instrument dash panel came with a collection of parts and a rolling chassis (134") that have been broken down and sorted into useful piles of rusty iron. Interestingly, the axles were the late type with tie-down flanges on the hubs. This matches the '45 build date, but jars with the '42 supply date of the contract! Go figure!!

:

David_Hayward (RIP) · #29 03-05-04, 10:13

The data plate off the Chevrolet is from a 1941 MODEL C-GT, and yes the 'XR' prefix to the engine number was placed in the trim section. Note the F.C. 102 paint...all others I have seen were F.C. 98 which was drab I think.

The Ford plate was a S/M 2508....this is on the Canadian list for FATs.

Rod Diery · #30 09-05-04, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
$ E.g. CHASSIS F-60448-M CAB 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 68048
ENGINE SERIAL 3G-20324-F
CONTRACT SM2104 BUILT MAR 17/42

In Australian Army service, this truck wore the ARN (Army Registered Number) of 53050.

Hi David, That's one of my trucks you are quoting there but the Chassis Serial number should read 38048. All other numbers are correct.
Cheers
Rod