Carrier Data plates

[George McKenzie]

Read what I posted about the numbers earlier The back lower number on the hull can be your serial number or very close to it . The date is stamped in the front armor in front of the driver . like" 3-25 1942" .It is not the last number in the serial number .It can be the last number of the CT or T number eg, CT 576934 The 4 would be the month . The CB number can be your serial number also ,behind the gunner or commander . If you have the CT number it will take some other information to get the numbers to put on your plate .The lower number will only be on the plate if it is the serial number .George

[derk derin]

Kevin,
I am glad I didn't send in my information yet! I thought the hull number was the one in the left rear corner angle iron.That is obviously the lower hull number.I wondered what they were refering to when upper hull number was being mentioned! I am back outside tommorrow with a flashlight to see if I can find the upper hull number.I AM getting closer as I read this thread.Keep the information coming as I may have interpreted other data wrong!
Thanks,Derk.

[Ralph Volkert]

People need to remember something. These were never meant to be numbers matching pieces of equipment. I don't know what the exact life span of a carrier was, once it was on the front but I doubt anyone was too worried about 70years later.

Production of the tub (Lower hull was 1 assembly)
drive train would be another and
upper hull was a third

In an ideal world production would be in sync and all the pieces would come together and the numbers would match. Didnt happen! they wanted volume pure and simple.

So most of the time numbers originally are all closely related but remember...it has been 70 years later.

Some machines were repaired, restored, perhaps battlefield repaired.
Some machines are a mix of 2 or 3 machines. So if all your numbers are close great. But look at your numbers and compare with those similar to yours. If your engine number is way off it is most likely not the original. If the CT number doesnt match your expected hull number range perhaps the armour in front of the driver was damaged and was changed out in the field or replaced by someone later down the road.

early engines where 55 hp. they wouldnt hold on to it for a 1000 carriers down the line and put it in when the new engines were now 75/90 hp. But to replace a blown motor I can see someone grabbing the 1st available spare.

Just do the best with what you have and remember you own a CARRIER! Dont sweat the little stuff. Just remember to indicate the numbers that are estimates so no one thinks that your data plate is gosple!

[Ralph Volkert]

Here is a hint in reading corroded numbers.
polish slightly with 600 grit emery paper.
blow/wipe the dust away
spray with WD40 or other rust remover.
This may bring out the missing number.
You may have to repeat several times.

If that is not enough you can be more aggressive.
I caution about the next hint. Be carefull.
use above method but use an acid hydrochloric or preferably phosphoric acid
neutralize when done and use a coat of light oil to protect the finish from further rusting.

When the numbers are punched it work hardens the steel. These treatments help to make the differences visible.

[George McKenzie]

I am running into a snag with getting the plates made .I have been told in the USA and UK .Don't know about Canada yet
IT is Totaly Illegal to make " reproduction" VIN plates . Possession of blank antique style plates and especially VIN rivets is a Federal offence If the Government issues one it will be plastic No reputable company will sell one or fabricate one . I have located one company that will make a plate , if you have the original one to copy from. Or the photo of the title . Documentation of numbers . Others won't do anything older than 1952 The question now, Is this a VIN plate ? And does the rules apply to a military machines We have talked about making up numbers for the plates.They say that is illegal also . I am waiting from a few companies for some more answers . David is doing some recherch in to this also .This is the last thing I would have though of happening .The last thing we need is Gove invovment .They threw the racords away so what good is a VIN plate now other than looks George McKenzie

[RichardT10829]

you are right in some respects...... it is not illegal in the UK to reproduce a vin plate as long as the details contained on the plate are correct for the vehicle ie if it was a car the plate would have to be correct to the stamped in vin on the chassis and other hidden VIN's which most folk dont know about (and i will not discuss any further for obvious reasons)

so say you had a mini. the visible vin is located in the gutter on the scuttle infront of the drivers seat, the vin plate is mounted on the slam pannel at the front where the bonnet meets the grille this part often corrodes and the plates either get binned or lost so you can reproduce plates to match the numbers in the chassis

NOW THEN:-

same chap has the same mini but the mini is registered as a 1964 austin mini.....he wants to make some money... and the car he has although nice is not worth that much money and this guy wants to make mega bucks so he goes onto ebay and buys an old V5 document for a 1964 austin mini cooper S.....he then goes back into his garage and welds over the numbers in the scuttle pannel and removes all the glass, then places the Cooper S Reg and plates onto the chassis.....now remember the plates came from a scrapped cooper S but the documents were retained....neither car was stolen......

dispite this you have stepped over the line and you have broken the law.

this is a very popular problem in the UK especially with Mini's and old Landrovers mainly because with mini's you get the cars value to rise from 3k to circa 19k and with landrovers its a way folk avoid paying road tax.

what you are doing is slightly different as the vehicles were not registered perse....

think of it as you building a caterham 7 car and you want to register it you can put anything you like as the chassis number....even BOLLOX1234 if you wish. i know chap that had his name and date of birth for the car something like ROB12012010.

the problem may arrise for those who dont know all their details for 100% certainty and they get a plate made.....later down the line another carrier is dragged from its rusty tomb and it has its plate in situ which contains some of the details you have used.

you cannot use plates from one carrier and put it on another.. this goes back to the mini scenario.

my advise...and it may not be liked ? is those in the situation where they do not know all their details can provide to you what they do know then for the missing details you give it any number but.....either before or after you place a mark be it a pip or a line....anything that way you can say to the powers that be this number has been given based on research however not 100% the mark identifies this number as questionable or not 100%

finally the question would be raised that these vehicles were never fully registered and those that were have long since gone...when the reg has not been used or has not flagged up in the system for a period of time, the details go back into the pot (so to speak) and the reg would be re issued for example those who have registered carriers in the UK will have numbers previously used on cars / bikes etc it is rare you will get a reg number of that period that has not been used before... my pal has an old 40's period number on his brand new audi.....cherrished transfer.

with documents especially in the UK i would need to sit down with a pint and spend a few hours explaining it i have kept it as simple as i can and have still babbled on so it gives you an idea


i know a little bit about this stuff especially for a brick layer !

Also a true vin contains a hell of alot of detail in the number sequence ie, make, model, trim type, date of manufacture, factory/country of manufacture and a unique random sequence.......

losely translated i suppose our plates are a vin but it could be argued that it was for military purposes for servicing and armament issues like a reference plate

i dont think you will have any issues to be fair George as there is no propper register for these things (i dont think)

[George McKenzie]

Thanks Richard . I agree with that you have said . Now the fact is are we making VIN plates as such . These were never used to get a license, they were for military use And if we did get a license which number would be on the license? ,I would think that if we need proof one number on the carrier would be proof of ownership .and like you say if you pick a number that is on another carrier the world won't come to an end .I have to convince the maker of this .

[RichardT10829]

i dont personally think they are vin plates... and i suppose at the reproduction of plates from his point of view would not be illegal...copied vins only become ileagal once they are used on a vehicle for the above purposes i mentioned....the manufacture is not the illeagal part...its the use.

just to throw a spanner in the works further the lists which are popping up on this thread list your 10128 carrier as a universal carrier no2 mk1* mine is 10131.... and after forensic testing of the remnants of my front armour and the numbers left therein (not complete) we arrived at the CT number being CT54508 by deduction (not fool proof) and my carrier is a No.3 Mk1* can i ask how you guys established 10128 was a no2 mk1* ? as this is throwing doubt into my mind about mine being what we beleive it to be...

its a minefield this numbering lark hahahaha.

[Ralph Volkert]

Hi Richard, I really only know and can guarante the numbers on my machine for certain. I have had to depend on the accuracy of the many differnt outside sources for the other machines listed here.

Due to a lack of reference materials, the UC 2MkI 2MkII or 3MKII or what ever, is the part I am deficient in. I recently have ordered Nigel's first 2 books in the hopes that will clarify the situation. But the list really will only be as acurate as the info given.

PLEASE! Note and Mail me ANY corrections notice or assistance. I will always correct and post copies of my list with Revision nos. to reflect any corrections and additions to the list.

Thanks to those who have already done so.

Speaking of which can anyone speak to the accuracy of Defence Contract # (CD) WSL72.2? What country is that for? That is a new one on me.

[Perry Kitson]

Just a few more numbers to throw into the mix. My carrier is missing the data plates(perhaps this is a better name than VIN plates), but here are the numbers off the MkII*(I believe).
Build date: 2 10 1944 (Feb. 10)
Serial #24344
W.D. # 266827
Lower hull # 26924
Upper hull # 26845

There seems to be quite a gap, in the other direction, between the serial number and the hull numbers compared to other carriers.
If somone is able to reproduce DATA plates, I would be interested in a set.

Perry

[RichardT10829]

Ralph / Perry. cheers for that i was not having a go, just wanted to make sure what i had was correct. Nigel Watson had done some research for me and he had come back with that contract number, it was made by ford Canada i know that much, but only he will be able to enlighten further as he had access to the full details. but here is a snippet of the info i have

The evidence on the vehicle points to it being manufactured as part of a batch of MkI Carriers made to Contract WSL72.2* between the years of 1942 and 1944.
*This evidence is from Universal Carrier wartime Production Cards held at Bovington Tank Museum, Dorset, from the wartime Standing Order Books held at The National Archives in London.


if they are made from brass i reckon if someone made the patterns i could get them made up. but with british VAT about to go crackers, it wouldnt be cheap.

[Jordan Baker]

Ralph here is another # for your list.

All that is left of this veh is part of the front armour. Myself and a buddy scraped the carrier 2 years ago and parted it out.

The top edge of the armour is stamped as follows.

CT113652 1943 1451 (5/6?) I can't tell if the last digit is a 5 or 6

Interesing as this is only a few numbers off of another one you have in your list.

[George McKenzie]

I have numbers for 22 carriers One thing you run into is that they are not consecutive . I notice the CT113xxx groupe has very low serial numbers . This is different because most of the serial numbers come from one of the two hull numbers on othercarriers. Ralph are you going to post another set of numbers soon If not I will put mine on as a guide for the guys . My MK11 Has a number on the out side 83-298 .I was told that this could be an American number .This is possible as it could have been on the Alaska hiway .

[George McKenzie]

Perry This number is very close to yoursCT 26662 lower hull 226060 Model UCNO2MK11* serial 25960 Hull 25560 motor TL 27588-F CD 2609 May 44 . Another one UCNo2MK11* serial 26647 HULL 35942 Motor TL27440 CD 2609 May 44 some more UCNo2MK11* serial 241268 HULL 20551 Motor TL 251816-F CD 2609 APr 44 You can calculate some where close to these numbers George

[rob love]

Originally Posted by George McKenzie

My MK11 Has a number on the out side 83-298 .I was told that this could be an American number .This is possible as it could have been on the Alaska hiway .

That numbering system was put in place sometime late 1942 or early 1943. It replaced the earlier domestic vehicles number system. An example of early would be 41-1-1234. The 42 was the year in service, the 1 was always a 1, and the remainder of the digits were just sequentially applied.

There does not appear to be any rational for the later system. The later numbers would be applied over the early ones.

[super dave]

Here is John Bizals Data plate and numbers as another source, Written down if the picture is not readable.

MODEL UCMK-1
SERIAL 9163 HULL 8169
ENGINE TL-9149-F
CD-213 BUILT AUG.42

Dave

[George McKenzie]

Thank.s for that Rob .There goes another another bit of advice . A record of carrier numbers with some information as to what and where they come form could be done up in a small book for carrier enthusias .That way we would have kept it for future use .I am waiting for two different makers of plates to get back to me .I think they may be concernd as to the legality of doing it All we can do is hope .Fact is we will be driving them wih or without the plates and you can't do that with your automobile

[Phill]

I'm going to need several plates. Curious what my MK2 data plate should say. The lower hull # on the left rear angle iron, is 27418. Engine is TL29746F. What should the hull #, serial#, CD #, and build date be? Anyone? Phil

[George McKenzie]

Reply from one plate maker A couple of ways to make the plate For an exact copy it would require a perfect oringinal plate to copy .Using a plate that has damage on it would show up in the reproduced plate This would not work for those that don't have a plate to copy . Another way is by Chemical etching The face would look about the same ,but the back would be flat & smooth. This also needs an original plate . It would look the same as the original one . Third way is to create a male and female die .This would require an nice original plate and woul be very expensive . What do you think about any of the above ? There is a machine that is called an "addressograph" That is old techinology for stamping I think it must be like a typewriter If we can locate one it would be alot less cost and more flexable for the different plates required .I was asked What has happened to the Tank restoration Muuseum in Toole Utah ? since the owner has passed away ? They might have some way of doing our plates . I have a set of numbers and letter for stamping but they stamp from the front .We need stamps that are left hand

[Lynn Eades]

Re your question (your post #68)
I believe your carrier would have been a NoII MkI* and started out with an 85 h.p. power unit.

[khern2365]

Originally Posted by George McKenzie

I am in the process of getting the data plate that goes behind the drivers head on my carriers. mvdataplates will do some on special order at a cost of $ 50 to $ 150
Might get a better deal with more orders . If you are in need of a plate or plates .Let me know . Also if you know where these are avalable else where let us know George

Yes George I need a set. Thanks Knox Herndon khern2365@aol.com
Cell 678-665-3623 Geoirgia USA EST

[Ralph Volkert]

Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread! Here is the latest serial number data base list. Some numbers are questionable if anyone can fill in the blanks with certainty please let me know!

I have enough partial sets of numbers to make one more update which I will make shortly.