Bombardier ILTIS

[Marc Montgomery]

Just wondering about the numbers of preserved/licensed Iltis are left in Canada

There were only a couple thousand made to begin with...a very small production run by vehicle standards. Although many parts are taken from VW AUDI car models, many other parts are Iltis specific. The vinyl roof for example is already rare, and likely to be a big restoration issue in the near future.

Because of the tiny numbers, it is almost certain that no reproduction companies will make parts-a la MB-GPW for example.

Of the original number...many were wrecked in theatre- the Iltis graveyard in Afghanistan for example (Convoy Mag #27) shows at the very least several dozen wrecks. Of course others would have been wrecked or left behind in Bosnia-Rwanda and elsewhere

Then of course many would have been wrecked in Canada.. Im guessing an attrition rate of about 50% by the time of release..

So about 1000 released across Canada? Of that number, a couple hundred at least would be suitable for parts only..say 700 serviceable vehicles (???) of that number, about half would have been picked up by collectors.. The rest bought for rough treatment by offroaders and unlikely to be preserved. or even survive long. Youtube images will likely attract other offroaders to purchase preservable Iltis when they come up for sale...thereby losing a portion of remaining restorable vehicles

All in all, Im guessing (total guess) about 300 or so Iltis preserved-restored and licensed across Canada..

Any thoughts on this (completely arbitrary) guesstimate?

[rob love]

I would suggest that your estimates on the numbers released would be low. As bad as those gaveyard shots may look, I would venture to guess they only amount to batches of a few dozens of vehicles. And with regard to accident victims here in Canada, they have to be very bad to get condemned. The repair of most vehicles in Cdn service is governed by the REL (repair expenditure limits). However, owing to the impossibility of going out to buy Cdn SMPs off the shelf to replace damaged vehicles, the RELs are usually waived by the LCMMs and the vehicles are repaired.

There were 2500 Iltis procured for the CF. I was in Cypress in 89 when we replaced the Iltis there with Pajeros. The Iltis were suffering badly from their in theater experiences, especially with frame and body cracking. I expected a later roto to have the job of cutting them up, but surprisingly these Iltis surfaced a year or two later in Shilo to be mixed and matched and rebuilt into serviceable vehicles, and issued to various units or to log stocks.

As to the quantities restored, like so many recently surplussed vehicles, they are often considered as non-important until later, when the available quantities get low. I doubt you would find 300 of any Cdn military vehicle fully restored in Canada. In the case of the Iltis, any still fully in mlitary livery are likely that way because it's the easiest.

[Scott Bentley]

I think another factor is the length of time they were in service... Nearly 20 years in some cases. Depending on where it came from, like out east for example, they were already having serious rust issues prior to disposal. Many are out there, but some are downright ugly.

The spare parts availability issue is something I think has really been downplayed. I hear some guys talk like there are scads and scads of Iltis bits floating around. Maybe this is true, but with the cannibalization authority in effect long before they went out of the system, I have my doubts as to how huge the spare parts supply really is. Sure, there are huge quantities of some things available, but its usually the stuff you wouldn't worry about anyway. Personally, if it were me, i'd be stockpiling the consumables now while the gettin is good. With decent running examples of the Iltis already demanding stratospheric prices ($5K seems to be the norm now for an Iltis, and yet I managed to get almost 3 MUTTs for that price with a bit of hunting), i'd imagine spare parts prices will climb accordingly. I'm sure Rob Love could educate the Iltis Folks on what exactly is known to croak and the list isn't exactly short.

Not to go pimping my M151A2 again , but that is the one nice thing about a having a vehicle that the fleet was demilled and only a few dozen are actually still alive. There is literally a mountain of spare parts floating around that will surely outlast the worlds oil supply.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Rob loaned me some of the project reports for the Iltis program and I was surprised to see that DND policy was to ALWYS drive the vehicle in four-wheel drive (the sole policy exceptin was when manoevering on a hard surface and sharp turns - such as a parking lot). The report states that this is better for the vehicle and does NOT result in additional wear and tear or in increased fuel useage.

[rob love]

The full time use of 4 wheel drive was considered a safety aspect, and any wear was the price of that safety. If tires were properly inflated, the scuffing and drive train wrap up would be minimal.

I do recall having to change more than the usual number of axles for wear on the RPs Iltis. It would have been subject to tight parking conditions on hard pavement.

I must say that whichever civilian figured out what to repair on the TCI boxes likely saved a lot of civilian Iltis from extinction. That was one item that was costly, and failed with regularity. Another was the turn signal flasher, especially when coupled with an old M100 with frayed wiring. I think a guy would have to do a bit of engineering to fit in a normal cost flasher.

I know what you mean about the low cost of Mutt parts Scotty. I had one for years, and the MV dealers in the US almost gave away the mutt stuff. I also had the residue from over 2 dozen M151s which made sourcing spares quite easy.

[Marc Montgomery]

this full-time 4wd issue has caused some debate in the Iltis community. And regardless of the DND claims, I personlly would NEVER drive on the street in 4wd (and don't), simply due to the excess wear on the driveline components and tyres. --especially as concerns wrap-up,...and it would increase fuel consumption.

I left mine accidently in 4wd once shortly after I got it and drove it just around the block and into the driveway and the wrap-up and resistance was immediately evident

second the idea of safety- ie improved grip on the street or highway road surface- especially in wet or otherwise slippery conditions.. is a myth, and in this false sense of security is why so many 4x4 Jeep and SUV owners end up in the ditch in winter

4x4 essentially improves traction (ie forward pulling) only. It does not change or improve resistance to lateral forces, or improve braking, both of which are more a function of the tyre grip on the road surface . It might marginally help in a sideways skid IF you know what you're doing, which 95% of people dont. So the idea of safety in 4wd ion streets and highways, is -IMHO - a myth (also shown on a couple of car TV shows)

Note: the abilities of recent very hi-tech car systems with their various highly computerized AWD systems combined with various types of viscous couplings, along with other skid control/traction technologies etc etc etc, should not be confused with the relatively simplistic 4x4 system of the Iltis

BUT-that aside, any thoughts on how many licensed-Iltis (still in military livery) do you think exist in Canada?

[rob love]

Marc
Your question about how many Iltis exist is an impossible one to answer. You could file a freedom of information request with DND to find out how many were sold publicly, as well as the fate of the remainder, then make an educated guess based on that. Alternatively, there may be ways to garner some of the info from various motor vehicle registration data banks, but even then you will not be able to count non registered ones. One thing that is cartain, you do not pass them everyday.

[Marc Montgomery]

I was sort of wondering what other -guesstimates- folks might have..
and thoughts on whether my various (and totally arbitrary) guesstimates to arrive at the final 300 guesstimate number, were totally off, slightly off or whatever.

Of the 2500 original, your impression (probably more reliable than mine) is that more than 1000 went on the civvie auction block.

--but some of those..at least at my auction, were not really restorable, but for parts.

I know that some are still in military livery, not because its easy, but because the purchaser -like me- wants to preserve them that way, but yes some folks not interested in the historical aspect leave them more or less as is while they beat around the rocks and trees with them.

But my guess is so far about 300 or so across Canada which for the moment are intended to remain or restored as military for their historical aspect. (ie by collectors) This is based on the number of "collectors" with a licensed preserved iltis that I know of who are sprinkled rather sparsely across Ont and Quebec, and the number with iltis i know about who have no interest in the historical aspect at all, and are busy modifying them and /or offroading.

so whaddya think 300 preserved/restored, running, licensed in the hands of collectors? is this high? low? why?

((BTW Rob your insight from your military and restoration experience is always extremely valued! and extremely helpful ! ))

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mark

There is a way of looking up how many of any given make and model car truck is registered in the US I've seen hard copy printouts years ago, I suspect the same is true of Canada. I vaguely remember the report being put out by one automotive engineer society magazine.

Now the bigger question where to we find that data base online. There are several other vehicles it would be interesting to see how many are registered as on the road.

Any thoughts?

Cheers Phil

[Matthew Reid]

I would guess that there are 700 to 800 in road worthy condition across Canada and the U.S possibly more.
I have seen about 100 road worthy units for sale in just the last couple years.

There has to be a couple hundred in Alberta alone Plus they are being restored all the time. And some of the units were restored from ones that were basically just good for parts when sold off.
At this point and time I would say there are more road worthy units around than when they were auctioned off.
We also have to remember a few were sold off in the mid 90's. One of mine is a unit that was sold off in the mid 90's.

As for regisitered units I would guess 400 to 500 As my 2 road worthy units are currently not registered.

Matthew

[Marc Montgomery]

aha..but note: running, licensed and destined to remain historicallly military in the hands of collectors.. As Rob pointed out, some are still in military colours, but of those many are basically being used as bushwackers by people not interested in their military heritage..

There may indeed be 700 running at present, but how many are running, licensed and currently in the hands of collectors who will maintain them and their military heritage.

( note also Im only talking about Iltis in Canada)

[rob love]

Bushwhackers still count because they will still be available for military restoration later.

Note that I have made my feelings for the Iltis known before on this forum, so I would have to question why anyone would bother, other than as a remembrance of the decay that was allowed to happen to the readiness of the Cdn forces by the governing parties of the last half of the previous century. Remember that it was only 3 years ago we were selling off the leopards as cold war relics with no replacement. How many service guys sacrificed their lives while the procurement processes were rushed to provide the DND with actual fighting equipment. Even today the opposition still whines when contracts are let without bidding on sole sourced equipment.

Rant over.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Bushwhackers still count because they will still be available for military restoration later.

Note that I have made my feelings for the Iltis known before on this forum, so I would have to question why anyone would bother, other than as a remembrance of the decay that was allowed to happen to the readiness of the Cdn forces by the governing parties of the last half of the previous century. Remember that it was only 3 years ago we were selling off the leopards as cold war relics with no replacement. How many service guys sacrificed their lives while the procurement processes were rushed to provide the DND with actual fighting equipment. Even today the opposition still whines when contracts are let without bidding on sole sourced equipment.

Rant over.

I had a Jeep buddy years ago who had a very nice CJ7. He went as far as to get a Personalized Licence Plate that said "NOTAYJ", because he didn't want his CJ to be confused as a YJ, which were considered inferior because of a bunch of reasons, as well as most memorably having Square rather than Round Headlights. The YJ was probably the 1/4 Ton Jeep's single longest step towards a departure from the WWII design.

I had someone give me an "Iltis" Circuit Breaker the other day thinking he was doing me a favour. I asked him what I needed the part for, and he replied, "Its for your Iltis"..... Unfortunately, I can't fit all of the letters "NOTANILTIS" on a Personalized Licence Plate.

For me, not unlike Rob, the Iltis and especially the LSVW, represent the "Rust-Out" "Bob Fowler" dark days of the CF. I know there is a huge following for the Iltis, and i'm sure the LSVW too when it finally/thankfully hits the market. But its not just because of when/where/who made it, how much was paid for it, etc etc... I drove these things many many miles as a Sapper during the 1990s. More than (arguably) most around here. Unfortunately they were not reliable, and in some cases this lack of reliability either, left me stranded, embarassed in front of Canadian Citizens or other NATO Forces, and in one particular incident, in danger. You never forget those situations. Maybe as "Single Owner" vehicles, carefully looked after, they will provide troublefree service. Who knows.

But to draw another parallel in a different dimension; I was a tad too young to serve when the M151A2 was in the system, but I climbed around on them as a Cadet, so the memory was burned in. It may have been/was/is a complete piece of crap for all I knew, but I wanted one. Since I was really never shamed by one, and even though they were cut up, away I went and started collecting them. I think this describes a good portion of the Iltis owners (wether young or old) out there. Then there are the occasional guys I run into who also served in them that start the conversation with "I always hated these things, but......."

Sorry guys, I gave the Iltis Circuit Breaker to the first Iltis owner I happened to run into

Scotty

[Marc Montgomery]

Hmm,
Rob your comments re the Leopards (and the tank force) are very well founded.

Meanwhile as for Iltis, given what one can see on youtube, some of them look like they`re being treated very roughly..and I dont know about them being restored later.or even as much of a parts source... since the many iltis specific parts may be in short supply or simply non-existant in the perhaps not so distant future, especially if offroaders use up NOS and used parts to replace stuff they break

As for the Iltis being a POS, I suppose one could say that about a lot of things, depending upon your particular point of view. Alhtough I like the look of the MUTT, and would love to have one, it was a bit dangerous initially. I personally saw one flip with two injuries at fairly low speed on the base at Lahr. I have also heard some ex CF say the Iltis was great cross country. In service how would the MUTT-or m-series for example compare to it x-c ?

An interesting thing, when the m38a1 was being released- I dont seem to recall a lot of them attracting the offroad crowd (? -am I remembering correctly, and perhaps even less so MUTTs. so I wonder why the Iltis is so attractive to offroaders, esp given the bad rep it got in the general media

I of course have no military experience with the iltis so cant comment on it in that regard. One thing I like for sure is the Iltis ability to keep up with today`s highway traffic, which was always a bit of a drawback with the older stuff.

BTW-as an interesting point... ex CDS Rick Hillier owns a restored Iltis

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

ex CDS Rick Hillier owns a restored Iltis

Rick probably spent most of his time in the Passenger Seat and not under the Hood, or running around looking for a Slave Cable

[Scott Bentley]

Marc,

At the end of the day, wether its good, bad or otherwise, if your happy with your Iltis, thats all that should matter.

I poured my heart and soul into a MUTT with all of its design flaws and lacking real collector value as its "Cut". At the end of the day, its what I wanted to own. I wouldn't expect someone who rolled one, froze on winter Ex doing Radio Watch in one, or torched them in half wanting to run out and own one anymore than I would want an Iltis.

It doesn't make it any less of an MV worthy of preserving.

The fact that psuedo off-roaders are soaking them up doesn't really surprise me. Compared to a new Quad, they are still pretty cheap and fairly well equipped for some weekend warrior woods action. As you said, you can highway drive them home. They are still new enough that Engines and Driveline are holding up. Once these components start failing in quantity, they'll go to the same fate as many 38s, 38A1s and 151's did, rusting in fields and behind sheds. How they stack up to an M38, M38A1 or a 151A2 off-road really seems like a moot point really to me now. Most serious restorers or collectors aren't pushing them to their limits cross-country.

Scotty

[rob love]

Having owned many M38 and M38A1s over the years, along with one Mutt for over a decade, I can say that hands down the M38 was the best, closely followed by the A1s. The 5:38 gearing made it great for hill climbing and rock crawling. The reason why I would suggest the M38 as the best despite it's it's lack of the 12hp increase of the A1 was it's flat hood gave unbelievable visibility when navigating difficult terrain. As well, it's shorter wheelbase meant less likelihood of getting hung up on barriers.

The M151A2s best quality was it's relatively modern engine and a decent highway speed, but these were not cross country attributes. It's weaknesses were those dozen U joints, a marginal gearbox, and overly simplistic design of the rear suspension hangers. It was not geared to hill climb. Over hood visibility was good; similar to an M38.

The Iltis had great highway speed, and could push snow fairly well with it's capability to lock up the rear diff, but the low skidplate made sure you didn't go too far into the snow. In sand, even on level ground, they were pathetic. As to hill climbing, the only way you could do it was with extreme speed. Luckily, the rotor acted as a governor to prevent the engines from over revving once the vehicle became airborne. We actually had complaints from the RCRs that the engines would cut out when the trucks flew.

[Matthew Reid]

And really you need to count all Ilti. One of mine the previous owner used it for off roading, but it was not beat to crap either he sold it when it started to run like crap and could not figure out what was wrong with it.

The Iltis more than any other CF Mil vehicle to date from when disposal of went in to the hands of collectors. There are more Mil vehicle collectors now than ever before. The Iltis likly could be the most commonly found preserved former Canadain Mil vehicle in the future.

Yes they are not the most reliable units and are a typical Volkswagen of the era. The Fact that they are a Volkswagen also allows them to cross over to the Volkswagen crowd, as there are several that have been bought and restored back to CF service colours by Volkwagen collectors.

You should see the starting condition of some of the units that have been restored especially in Eastern Canada, some that were as far as I'm concerned were rusted far to badly to be slavaged, but they were. Also there have been several that were disposed of for parts that have been restored and put back on the road. Rust will be the biggest killer for restoring the Iltis down the road, As they are very rust prone, but a few mods and some modern rust proofing compounds will quickly solve the issues.


The other advantage the Iltis has is it's rather high transaction price on the used market. Most bought for off roading will be sold off once they need repairs and or the novelty has worn off with owner. (as was the case with my 85) .

Far far fewer Ilti will be be woked to death in post CF service and left to rot in a feild as was the case with most former CF wheeled vehicles.

Ilti tend fetch good dollars on the used market making them less likly to sit and rot in a feild or be scrapped as was the case with many M135's M37's and Jeeps in years past.

The Iltis is a more usable vehicle on road than any other former CF vehicle save for the CUCV's. So that appeal will pull more individuals in to the hobby to preserve and restore them. That is exactly what brought me in to it.

Parts comonality for most drive line stuff is avalible from civilian vehicles, I imagine what will be difficult to find in future will be sheet metal spares.

Yes they represent a time of cut backs in CF but they are also in the last generation of Candian built soft skin wheeld vehicals to serve in the CF. From here on out we likly will never see another wide use wheeled CF vehicle built in Canada.
And for that reason alone they have a special place in CF vehicle collections.

I do think that the Iltis has a really good shot of being the most widly preserved former CF vehicle in the future.

Matthew

[Marc Montgomery]

Scottys point about the cicurit breaker demonstrates again, that to the average citizen there's little difference among all 1/4t models...they're all "jeeps" and one is like another right? ...as a point..when I had my 3-ton, no-one realized it was a 60yrold WWII vehicle, and francophone Quebeckeres often referred to it as my "gros jeep"- big jeep.

I suppose all MVs have/had their good points and drawbacks while in service, and these issues may or may not apply to them in collectors hands. Scotty rightly points out that offraod ability is of little importance since collectors almost never go offroad, or if so, only mildly so.

The Mutt is (IMHO) is equally as interesting as any other 1/4t vehicle, regardless of it being re-welded (arent there more re-welded than uncut?) I think they're kinda neat looking too.

There were certainly more of the M series jeeps built than Cdn Iltis-for example= 2,500
M-38= 45,000+, M38A1= 100,000+
and heck, with enough money, you can buy all the repop parts and build an MB-GPW almost 100% from scratch

** I sure would like to know my Iltis history as there were no detectable unit marking on the bumpers-I believe someone on the forum has access to CFR number-history?) **

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

** I sure would like to know my Iltis history as there were no detectable unit marking on the bumpers-I believe someone on the forum has access to CFR number-history?) **

CFR Request Thread

Just post up your VIN/Serial Number from your (cough/choke ) Iltis on that threadf and i'll pull it for you. Your CFR as i'm sure you know, is the last 7 Digits in your VIN Number on an Iltis.

I'm falling a bit behind with the CFR Requests as my Unit has moved me to another new workspace and I havn't got EDR setup and running on the terminal in here.

Scotty

[Marc Montgomery]

suprisingly I dont see prices rising for the Mahindra jeep, mm550xd
or perhaps if you wanted to really confuse folks with something a tad bigger.
how about the Nissan 4W73 ..not a jeep of course...

used to be a Munga around Montreal (pre Iltis) but havent seen it lately, also a Munga was apparently for sale last year in Ontario, no price avail

[Young_Law]

I found a Munga in Fredericton, just sitting in a parking lot rusting away.

[Marc Montgomery]

Well I guess thats a confirmation of one of my thoughts...ie.. that many of the finite supply of parts are being bought by people who have no interest in their military/Cdn history/heritage, and who are breaking parts in the woods and sandpits while bushwacking