Handing it down

[Keith Webb]

Having been interested and involved in CMPs since the mid 1970s, and having seen many collectors and historians pass away I have come to realise we are really only temporary custodians of these treasures known as Canadian Military Pattern vehicles.

Back in 1984 there was a very special event held at Rockwood in Canada, hosted by Bill Gregg. For those relatively new to CMPs Bill was one of the first to recognise the importance of preserving the history Canada's vast contribution to vehicle production in WW2.

Set amongst his amazing collection, the CMP seminar 1984 deservedly has legendary status, because it brought together the vehicles, enthusiasts and collectors with some of the men who designed and built these remarkable vehicles. Possibly the most famous to CMP history being Sid Swallow, responsible for the design of the early CMPs.

To quote from the welcoming letter: "Story-telling is the traditional way for the elders of a society to hand down their knowledge and history to a younger generation. The spoken word brings out the special meaning, feelings and color of the story. At this seminar, you are encouraged to ask questions, to probe the past. By so doing, not only will you be enriched, but so will be the listeners for many generations."

Why do I emphasise this? Because there was a video record made of this significant event, one which few have seen. Many of the participants of this event have passed on, including Sid Swallow, Bill Gregg and Peter Ford.

This event occurred about the same time since the vehicles were designed as we are now from the seminar.

If anyone knows who made this video and can help share it with the now greatly expanded CMP community I'm sure we would all be grateful that the intent of passing this information on will be fulfilled.


http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...0%6084%202.jpg

Source

[peter simundson]

One of the reasons no one has seen it is the incredibly poor sound portion of the tape. Whoever made it, and he hired a "professional" to do it had an equipment failure and the sound reproduction came out so bad he never sold copies, which was the intention. I could probably put it on a DVD.

Peter S

[Brian Gough]

Keith, a great post. Let's hope the video surfaces sometime soon. If I recall correctly Chris Vicary in recent years had made some attempts to contact Dr. Gregg's family for some follow-up.

We are also fortunate to have Phil Waterman, who attended ' CMP Seminar '84 ' as a major contributor on this Forum and someone who so readily shares his CMP knowledge on his own website.

http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/


Brian

[Keith Webb]

We have our own sound studio here - and can do some pretty amazing things to restore sound, although sometimes it is so poor it cannot be saved... but happy to give it a go - as long as it is intelligible I think it will be worth it. Hopefully whoever owns it will be happy to see it out there.

Phil was indeed very lucky to have been there and I endorse your positive comments about sharing his experience, Brian.

Originally Posted by peter simundson

One of the reasons no one has seen it is the incredibly poor sound portion of the tape. Whoever made it, and he hired a "professional" to do it had an equipment failure and the sound reproduction came out so bad he never sold copies, which was the intention. I could probably put it on a DVD.

Peter S

[Keith Webb]

Does anyone know whether any of the WW2 panel members are still alive? I note one of them was only 18 at the start of the war - I regularly interview former RAAF members now in their late 80s and 90s, so it's possible.

Be great if someone over there can do an interview if it's not too late.

PS I meant to add my sincere thanks to Phil Waterman for publishing the details of the seminar on his website.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Keith

Thank you for bring this topic up again. It has been discussed in the past and unfortunately it never has lead to a successful conclusion.

Yes, there was a tremendous amount of information presented and yes I believe that all of the panelist have passed on.

There are issues with the video, I have been told repeatedly by people who have seen the few copies that have existed that the sound quality is horrible which is the reason nothing was ever done with it.

There, may also be copyright issues which would apply if the video was to be sold. But these copyright issues may be mute because of the time that has passed and if the restoration of the video was for historical and educational issues.

I have also been advised that by people who have spoken with the Gregg family that this could be a difficult topic for them. So please do not disturb them with this.

The video without the sound track is 3 days of people sitting behind a table talking, which would be really boring unless you read lips.

There I've laid out everything I know about the video and yes if we could bring back the words spoken over those days I'd want to hear them again.

I have tried to share all I could of CMP 84 experience over the years as was mentioned I have posted all my photos and copies of all the written material related to the conference/symposium http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/CMP84.htm

Cheers Phil

[Keith Webb]

Yes I recall there were issues with the sound. When you say the sound quality is horrible does that mean you can't even hear the voices?

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Keith

Thank you for bring this topic up again. It has been discussed in the past and unfortunately it never has lead to a successful conclusion.

Yes, there was a tremendous amount of information presented and yes I believe that all of the panelist have passed on.

There are issues with the video, I have been told repeatedly by people who have seen the few copies that have existed that the sound quality is horrible which is the reason nothing was ever done with it.

There, may also be copyright issues which would apply if the video was to be sold. But these copyright issues may be mute because of the time that has passed and if the restoration of the video was for historical and educational issues.

I have also been advised that by people who have spoken with the Gregg family that this could be a difficult topic for them. So please do not disturb them with this.

The video without the sound track is 3 days of people sitting behind a table talking, which would be really boring unless you read lips.

There I've laid out everything I know about the video and yes if we could bring back the words spoken over those days I'd want to hear them again.

I have tried to share all I could of CMP 84 experience over the years as was mentioned I have posted all my photos and copies of all the written material related to the conference/symposium http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/CMP84.htm

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Keith

You are asking the really important question, which will only be answered if one of the few copies that exist is given to a video/recording restoration expert to actually review. This is something that I hope can be done before the 27 year old video tape becomes totally unrecoverable.

As to the information even if the sound is gone but the video is good head on view, then trying to have someone who can read lips make a transcript so that at least the words can be shared may be worth the effort. If my recollection of what was said is correct then it would be worth the effort.


Cheers Phil

[Bob Phillips]

Just to throw in a comment if I may: I also attended Bill Greggs Seminar event ( I met Phil there and we talked HUP's) After the Seminar was over and some time later I asked Bill about the recording and he told me that one (of many?) problems was the fact that the mikes were left open (on) and one elderly participate talked non stop through the event and over ran much of what was said by the other participants. I don't have any connection with the family - but I bought much of what was left of the vehicle odds and end after the collection was moved on ...Bob Phillips

[BCA]

Dusting off old memories, in addition to attendees previously mentioned, the CMP Seminar was attended by the late Bart Vanderveen and the late David Brown (from Australia), as well as Gary Moonie from British Columbia.
I had just finished a Chev C15A and it was the only CMP to attend other than the vehicles from Bill Gregg's large collection. On the Monday following the Seminar a group of us went to view the museum at Camp Borden about 50 miles north of Toronto.
......... Brian

[chris vickery]

Perhaps between todays modern science and technology, someone who has a copy can get it to those whose are in the know and maybe scrub the soundtrack and/or establish a transcript of somesort and have a modern voiceover put in place of the original???
I believe in todays world, soundtracks also have a transcript done in black and white to avoid such problems later on in production...Was there ever a transcript made of the seminar?

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Perhaps between todays modern science and technology, someone who has a copy can get it to those whose are in the know and maybe scrub the soundtrack and/or establish a transcript of somesort and have a modern voiceover put in place of the original???
I believe in todays world, soundtracks also have a transcript done in black and white to avoid such problems later on in production...Was there ever a transcript made of the seminar?

A transcription of something like this is normally not done; it usually happens with productions which go to air. This is called closed captioning and can be turned on or off on modern TVs.

A modern voiceover would turn it into a bizarre farce, sort of like watching Happy Days in Italian (believe me, I've seen it).

The best outcome would be for the audio to be at least intelligible, notwithstanding the chap talking over it.

Next best option is just a transcription.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Perhaps between todays modern science and technology, someone who has a copy can get it to those whose are in the know and maybe scrub the soundtrack and/or establish a transcript of somesort and have a modern voiceover put in place of the original???
I believe in todays world, soundtracks also have a transcript done in black and white to avoid such problems later on in production...Was there ever a transcript made of the seminar?

Chris..
Do you know if Brian Cox is still around..??Didn't he live next door to Bill G.//??
He may have more info on this but I haven't been in touch with him for the past 5-6 years..maybe longer..
He was into motorcycles and may still be on MLU but I haven't seen him around lately.If you or Brian Asbury know of him maybe he has something..

Alex

[Marc Montgomery]

wow this brings up memories.

When I first became involved with CMPs, I corresponded at length with Peter Ford, and much later, we had a great day together when he came to Montreal only a very short time before his untimely death.

He knew quite simply truly massive amounts of historical information, not just CMPs but indeed all kinds of things related to the war effort and production. His passing was a great loss to the hobby. I hope someone comes up with a copy of the meeting, and I agree entirely with Keith re voiceover...possibly captioning if the dialogue can be determined.

Perhaps instead of being a touchy subject for the Gregg family, they may be glad someone is still interested in his work, and view this as a legacy to his memory. Thats been my experience in media.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

wow this brings up memories.

When I first became involved with CMPs, I corresponded at length with Peter Ford, and much later, we had a great day together when he came to Montreal only a very short time before his untimely death.

He knew quite simply truly massive amounts of historical information, not just CMPs but indeed all kinds of things related to the war effort and production. His passing was a great loss to the hobby. I hope someone comes up with a copy of the meeting, and I agree entirely with Keith re voice over...possibly captioning if the dialogue can be determined.

Perhaps instead of being a touchy subject for the Gregg family, they may be glad someone is still interested in his work, and view this as a legacy to his memory. That s been my experience in media.

Marc.
After Peter left your place he stopped in Ottawa here and he and Elizabeth had dinner with us..
It was a memorable visit and Peter had a second helping of Dotty's home made lemon pie..his favourite..

They then left heading home to the prairies and not a week later Elizabeth contacted me with the shocking news of Peters passing..
He was fighting a cold and congestion when he was here ..
But over all seemed in good health.
I miss him..we lost a CMP jewel in the crown..

RIP Peter.

[Randy Croke]

I talked to a gentleman some time ago who was in attendance and has a copy of the tapes - I have no idea about the sound quality, but did encourage him to proceed with what would be an amazing project.

It's not my place to identify him here, but will try to make contact with him and see if anything can be done.

Randy

[derk derin]

Hi All,
I have a copy of this tape and watched all of it.I thought because my tape was a copy of a tape that was the reason of the poor quality sound.There must be alot of information discussed at this event that we all would enjoy to hear about.There was one fact discussed by a gentleman at the head table that said not too many people knew about but the Canadian Army had all brand new fighting vehicles for the Normandy invasion to use instead of vehicles that had already seen hard use up until then.I found that interesting and wish I could have heard more but was unable to hear the conversation clearly.I am currently trying to find the tape as I watched it last winter and haven't seen it since then.It is here and if nobody beats me to it,I will try and find it and pass it onto whoever is up to the challenge of working on it.
Regards,Derk.

[Keith Webb]

We have a full sound studio here.

Originally Posted by derk derin

Hi All,
I have a copy of this tape and watched all of it.I thought because my tape was a copy of a tape that was the reason of the poor quality sound.There must be alot of information discussed at this event that we all would enjoy to hear about.There was one fact discussed by a gentleman at the head table that said not too many people knew about but the Canadian Army had all brand new fighting vehicles for the Normandy invasion to use instead of vehicles that had already seen hard use up until then.I found that interesting and wish I could have heard more but was unable to hear the conversation clearly.I am currently trying to find the tape as I watched it last winter and haven't seen it since then.It is here and if nobody beats me to it,I will try and find it and pass it onto whoever is up to the challenge of working on it.
Regards,Derk.

[Larry Hayward]

Bill Gregg was a great guy. I wrote to him in Canada in 1980 /81 and asked if there were any books available on Canadian vehicles in WW2 and by return he sent me a copy of Canada's Fighting Vehicles Europe 1943-45, with a note saying send me CAN$5 when you get a chance - what a trusting guy I thought! He certainly got his CAN$5 and I later had a few other off him in similar fashion.

I still have the above as a great reference book, and so far not it's not been matched for the amount of AFVs wheeled vehicles and trailers, even by Bart.

Quite a rare book now I think

[Chris Ford]

My name is Chris Ford, son of Peter Ford. (out of the blue, I know)

I recently was looking at Mapleleafup.org in an effort to contact some of my father's old CMP friends about what to do with his old '43 Ford 15 hwt. F15 A. Unfortunately I no longer have the space for it. I'm therefore looking for a new home for it. Museum? Local enthusiast? I was going to post on the site, but I was shocked and saddened to see the site was no longer there. Digging deeper, I found the site's new home as was quite relieved. Then I read about Geoff's passing, and was again shocked, saddened and sorry to hear about it. It seems my dad was one of very many who held him in high esteem.

While looking at the forum, I saw the thread about "handing it down" and recognized the title of the 'CMP 84 Seminar' tapes mentioned. I looked through my basement and found 3 reels of 5, on beta cassettes (betamax Keith, betamax! Does anyone else still have betamax? There are 5 tapes because they are all shorter than your typical VHS). I plugged them in and found the sound quality to be just fine. Tonight I managed to locate the other two reels. One of the tapes seemed to have some mic feedback and light hissing that rendered the speakers difficult to understand - though probably not for you guys - I just didn't know much about what he was discussing. Maybe any future formats should have subtitles for the difficult parts. I'm not sure what would be the most efficient way to get them out there for the interested world, but I'm looking to send them to Keith as he seems quite interested in working on them.

I feel pretty happy to still have these tapes and to be able to help out. A few years ago, when I was going through the 3000 or so beta tapes my dad had (that's right he didn't just collect military vehicles!), I made the decision to keep those tapes, though I didn't really know what they were. I figured, that someday I might get into the CMP world and if so, these tapes might be a good source of info to start me on my way. I decided to check out the first part of the first tape to get an idea of what the seminar was about and was really pleased and surprised to see my dad was a coordinator for it. It was really neat to see him as a 47 year old man and listen to his passionate introductory comments for the convention about the importance of the war efforts, including cmp production, to our history and culture.

After my dad died, I had wanted to get involved with infoex, maybe even continue updating and publishing it. But the task seems beyond my resources. In the ten years since his passing, life has just moved from one thing to another, my life has taken its own direction, and I don't really foresee too many "let's become a world expert on an entirely new hobby" moments opening-up anytime soon!! With one little boy and another on the way, my hands are nice and full. Both Elizabeth (my sister) and I feel discomfort that it has sat shelved for so long. We are proud of our dad's work and his knowledge in this field but we remain as unsure today as we did a decade ago, as to what we should do with it. She had talked to Marc Montgomery about it a long time ago, but then we never really moved on it. Any thoughts about what should be done with infoex? What would be of most benefit to cmp enthusiasts and to cmp history?

Thanks for your time, and for maintaining such a high quality and important website,
-Chris Ford

p.s. (and not a small p.s.) I would like to pass on a great big thank you to those who have been involved in CMP preservation. Not only because of the great service it does to Canada and the Commonwealth, but because of the people who inspired and shared a passion with my dad. It was one of his greatest joys to partake in conversations with this community. Further I would like to thank you for the heartwarming comments that were made shortly after his death. It truly helped to ease the pain to hear that he was so well appreciated and respected. Ten years later I am still thankful for your kindness and reading even today people commenting on him and his work, really makes my family and me proud.

[Brian Gough]

Hello Chris,

Welcome to the MLU Forum and thank you for your posting. It is nice to have contact with Peter's family.

Your father was one of the true pioneers of the CMP hobby and you have every reason to be proud of him. He was most helpful to me when I was first getting involved and I was trying to find a HUP to buy. We wrote and spoke many times and on 2 occasions he spent a day here in Oshawa with Barry Churcher and me. The last time was on the trip just before his death. I will try to locate some photos of him that were taken then.

He certainly had a love of history. On his last trip he was particularly interested in taking pictures of Camp 30, the WWII German prisoner of war camp in Bowmanville. He said he had thousands of photographs he had taken all across the country.

That is very good news about your locating the CMP 84 Seminar tapes and offering to share them with Keith.

Best regards to you and Elizabeth.

Brian

[Keith Webb]

Hi Chris and may I echo Brian's comments. We're very happy to have you here on MLU and of course even happier at the prospect we can help share some of your dad's enthusiasm for this, our favourite subject.

Welcome, and may you find your contact and involvement with the community fascinating and fruitful.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Chris

It most certainly pleasant hearing from you, your father had many friends through this strange shared interest in CMPs. I first started corresponding with your dad not long after I discovered the history my HUP. He helped me with information about the CBC trucks and the recordings equipment. Your Dad had hoped that my HUP was actually one of the CBC trucks which had disappeared, but once we discussed the date of manufacture (to late) we knew it wasn't. I remember well your Dad coming down to Lowell Massachusetts in 1986 for the MVPV convention, we rode through the streets of the city in a parade, your Dad, my family and three young Canadians in my HUP we all had a grand time. It was also your Dad who contacted me about CMP 84 and urged me to attend, which I'm so grateful I did.

The tapes you have found are probably some of the closest to the original recording that are likely to be found. They probably offer the best chance to recover the history that was discussed at that conference.

As to information in InFoex, though some of the information will have changed, who owns what trucks, there is still a lot of information there that will help people date vehicles, which are missing the data plates. With the growth of the internet as a median of information exchange such MLU making that information available even as simple text files would be of interest.

May I extend our best wishes to you, your sister, and the entire Ford family.

Cheers Phil

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Welcome aboard Chris..
On your dads last trip east,he and Elizabeth stopped here at the house in Ottawa and we were pleased to have a great visit and to feed them and to meet them finally ,as my previous conversations with Peter were by e-mail..through MLU forum or by phone..
You dad sure was a sucker for my wife's lemon pie and I was able to twist his arm for a second big slice which disappeared quickly..
He appeared to have a chest cold and I was hoping that he would have a quick trip home and get some rest..
Your dad was a giant in our world and there are many Saskatchewan and prairie MLU members that with help you with you Dads CMP disposal and will give you fair market value or better.
Some of the names would be David Pope..Rob Fast..Rob Love..and those three off the top of my head and there are others.
I personally know most of the posters on this thread that you started and can vouch for their honesty and sincerity and you can Private Message any one of us for information that you don't want to post publicly..When dealing in this ..or any other field that are always those that will take advantage of you..either financially or otherwise to cheat and rob you..
What you have is worth a big buck to some collectors so be aware and discuss with Brian..or me or Keith or Phil in confidence with your ideas..intentions or any other thoughts and ideas you may have with you fathers collections..
As a past CMP Manual collector ..when I sold it I sold it to a man here in Ottawa that assured me that these would always be available for others to buy copies of..
He is working on a new web site to get them back on line and I hope Grant gets these back on line.
Be careful .there are those that would steal the pennies out of a dead mans eyes ..when it comes to CMP stuff..
There are trusted agents of our CMP Fraternity that could get those tapes back to Keith in Australia that are coming to Canada to visit in July if we could get them to Keith he can trans pose then to DVD's He has a whole audio visual business doing just that..another very trusted MLUer..
And an original CMP nut..
Keep posting..we are not going anywhere..
Alex Blair
Ottawa

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Chris - Finding a good home for a CMP such as your Dad's Mach KL is a challenge. Sadly CMPs are not treasured very much in Canada. I sold my old C15 (which your Dad drove on a visit to Burnaby, BC) to Brian Wood of Vancouver who later donated a bunch of his CMPs to the Canadian War Museum and RCA Museum in Shilo. Mine was one of those. You can check out the military museums in Saskatchewan, though they never have the money to purchase, but often can issue tax receipts. - Colin Stevens (formerly N. Battleford, SK) Richmond, BC seaforth72@gmail.com

[Chris Ford]

Thanks Keith, Brian, Alex, Hanno, Phil, and Colin for your replies. It really brought a smile to my face to hear from you. By the way Phil, I saw you in the CMP videos asking a question - it was nice to see the face that went along with the name - even if the image was 27 years old! Also, I saw your friends tribute page on your cmp site - thank you.

Colin, any sense of what my dad`s truck is worth - if a person sold it privately or donated it to a museum? Does the tax receipt match the approximate private sale value? The truck is still in good condition. I believe the master cylinder needed work or replacement (ideas where to get one or who to see to get`er fixed?) and as a result the brakes don`t work. As well the fan belt is too old and loose (again ideas on where to get a new one?).
Also Colin, I saw your tribute too. Whenever I wanted to show somebody what my dad and a CMP looked like - I would go to your site. Thanks for for the kind words and act.

Other than that I think she`s still a beaute! We used it in 2001 as the wedding party vehicle for my sister`s wedding - the first time I got to drive it. Wow, double clutching with no synchomesh, and gas pedal in the middle, not to mention its all backwards for right-hand driving. It was pretty fun!

Keith - where do you want me to send the tapes? I`m going to dub my dad`s opening remarks onto DVD for my family once I remember how to hook up the wires, and while I`m at it, I`ll probably do the whole five tapes as well, then send the originals to you. Betamax isn`t a problem for you right? If Australia is all out, I`ve still got 4 of my father`s former 11 kicking around - you know for parts!

Not to be forgotten, I also appreciated the kind words on your web site about my pop. Writing this post - I hadn`t previously considered that three different individuals in three different countries had devoted a section of their websites to pay tribute to him. That`s really something to me.

-Chris Ford

[Marc Montgomery]

I believe a couple of photos of your sister's wedding were featured in Convoy magazine involving your Dads CMP.. dont have them handy where i am right now though. Perhaps someone else who does have them handy can tell you.

[r.morrison]

Guys....for what it's worth. My next door neighbour has a sound recording studio in Vancouver and the current President of our group, the Canadian Military Remembrance Society is a whizz bang with computers and copying items, such as you speak. Can we assist in any way?

No guarantees....but something is better than nothing! Robert

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

Guys....for what it's worth. My next door neighbour has a sound recording studio in Vancouver and the current President of our group, the Canadian Military Remembrance Society is a whizz bang with computers and copying items, such as you speak. Can we assist in any way?

No guarantees....but something is better than nothing! Robert

Sounds like a fine idea Robert! This may be just what we need. It would be far easier to do it locally if that can be achieved.

I'm still standing by to assist if need be.

[Chris Ford]

Hi Robert thanks for the helping offer,

So can your guys duplicate Betamax? If so, do they have any means of boosting a sound signal or filtering the noise - at least one of the five tapes needs some help I think. If not, what about subtitling? Although I couldn`t figure out what was being said, it`s possible somebody in the know could figure it out. I`m not sure how much of the seminar`s sound needs to be improved - I guess I`ll just have to watch it all to figure that out.

My wife pointed out something interesting to me last night . . . in trying to get rid of my dad`s CMP, I`m learning more about them than in all the ten years I spent trying to keep it . . . hmmm

-Chris Ford