New to me C60L's

[Ken Smith]

Good day friends,
I recently purchased a good C60L rolling chassis with chassis number 38443M00001,I am guessing that this was the first C60L put together by GMH for 1943 in Melbourne.
Today I looked at a mint 1945 C60L.The plate on the dash reads like this,
CHASSIS MODEL 4X8443
CHASSIS SERIAL 4-8443-71597
ENGINE I didn't write it down
DATE OF DELIVERY 5-5-45 1ND (It is 1ND not IND,maybe a stampo/typo.)
The ARN is 77821
I thought that the ARN was a bit early but I will check with the War Memorial records.The ARN stencil is original as are the tyre pressure stencils.The truck has a canvas covered round roof hatch.
The CMP was bought by the farmer from a local disposal dealer in 1956 it had a Australian wooden body with Australian steel tyre carrier and toolbox,all long gone.
The truck was repaired to condition 4E at 24810 miles on 5 DEC 1955 for Northern Command.
The truck doesn't have the rear chassis extended like the workshop trucks so I think that it would have been just a GS.
Would this truck have been built completely as a cab chassis in Canada,or like the earlier cab 13s shipped as a chassis then fitted with Australian cab.
The only pictures I can find of the round roof hatches is on trucks in Korea during the Korean war,the trucks have Australian registration numbers.
This truck is deep bronze green,which reminds me there was another round roof hatch truck in town untill about 15 years ago then it disappeared.
I have waited 31 years to buy this truck,I will try and post some photo's when I get it home in the next couple of months,I have to wait for the farmer to remove the grain body fitted to it.
Cheers Ken

[Ken Smith]

I have been wondering what sort of body/tray to fit to the 1945 C60L.I have found 2 Australian drop side GMH steel bodies locally which would do the job,I have also found a Canadian steel body in poor but restorable condition,it has a tag at the rear with 42 1 5F2 340 stamped into it ,the body was made by W.D. Beath and Son Toronto.Does any one know what a 5F2 body is used for?
I have been studying Keith Webbs oldcmp.net site in detail and now know that the late cab with the round hatch is made in Canada.Is it possible that these late trucks were diverted cargo similar to the Studebakers that came here after VE day?
Cheers Ken

[Ken Smith]

I paid a gentleman in Canberra to check out a lot of my ARNS and I got him to check 77821 it was demobbed 20th August 1956. In one of the columns it has this notation W/O BofS, I am thinking W/O means written off as in written off the books,do any of you know what BofS might mean? May be something of Supply .The same notation is used for my 1952 F500 that was disposed of in 1964.Earlier trucks and later trucks have entirely different notations.
All the other numbers check out and it appears to have never had an engine change.
When I put the photos up I will start using the restoration forum
Cheers Ken

[Keith Webb]

W/O - Written off as you suggest, or at least approved for disposal. BofS = Board of Survey which was the examining government authority.

Usually the priority was government agencies such as GPO and fire authorities first, then back to manufacturers to sell through dealer networks, then to other buyers.

You'll see a lot of sales to GMH and Ford for CMPs. Another thing you'll see is SAN with a number which is simply Sales Advice Note.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I paid a gentleman in Canberra to check out a lot of my ARNS and I got him to check 77821 it was demobbed 20th August 1956. In one of the columns it has this notation W/O BofS, I am thinking W/O means written off as in written off the books,do any of you know what BofS might mean? May be something of Supply .The same notation is used for my 1952 F500 that was disposed of in 1964.Earlier trucks and later trucks have entirely different notations.
All the other numbers check out and it appears to have never had an engine change.
When I put the photos up I will start using the restoration forum
Cheers Ken

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Keith I would never have worked Board of Survey out.I had wondered about SAN.
My cab 12 F60L ARN 51720 appears to have been sold back to Ford Motor Company.
Cheers Ken

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The 38443M00001 was off a CKD chassis assembled in Melbourne Plant. The 1944 MODEL truck has a plate on it that has been mis-stamped as it should be 'X4' and not '4X'. X4 was the code for Australian delivery.

Note that there were other 00001 chassis, with each plant using their own system with a plant identifier: A, B, M, P and S.

[Ken Smith]

Thanks for the information David. I think I love the research as much as the the whole chase, doing the deal and getting the babies back into a safe home.I was only thinking the other day that at least 5 of my trucks have come from farmers that bought trucks straight after the war and used them carefully and wanted the trucks to go to someone who would look after them.I still had to pay for all of them and quite a bit for 2 of them.This sort of ties in with Keiths handing it down thread and I feel it is a big responseability keeping safe ,trucks that have served our countries in war and peace.I seem to have got off track there, but seeing the looks on the farmers faces when they see the way their old trucks are tucked up in my shed or in a parade or at a reunion makes me happy.All of the farmers have gone to great lengths to make sure I have every part they have ever taken off the truck and they have all given me photo's and the history of where and when and how they got what to some of them was their first car.
Cheers Ken

[Ganmain Tony]

Stop tormenting us Ken, it sounds like a fantastic purchase!!

Photo's man! photo's!!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Absolutely!!!

[Ken Smith]

Good day friends,

Well after three and a half years my C60L is home. I have now had a chance to examine the truck with my glasses on and with a magnifying glass and a few things are a bit strange.

First the engine has been changed a couple of times in the army life of the truck, the engine number on the data plate is DR4014304, the engine number in the War Memorial book is DR3750990, the engine in the truck is DR4014613, and is painted deep bronze green and I guess it is a army rebuild. I am happy with all that as the engine runs very sweetly.

There are about 6 different notations about repairs and reclassification stencilled under the bonnet/hood they start in 1953 and go up to Dec 1955, all with Northern Command, Queensland.

The manufactured date is 5-5-45 IND, originally I thought it was 1ND but now I am not so sure, funny thing the dashes between the 5-5-45 are actually the number 1 lying on its side. Could this truck have been made for India ? It was supplied under SM 6404.

The truck is deep bronze green as you would expect, and the paint is polishing up reasonably well for 60 year old paint, the ARN 77821 is painted on the top of the front clip, 3 times in 3 different styles, but on the bottom layer of brownish paint is the number 4004, it is stencilled on and done very well, quite thick, it is possible that there are numbers before the first number 4 but there is no room for anything after the last number 4. Could this be a Indian registration number? I will add at this stage that the ARN 77821 and the chassis number 4-8443-71597 tally with the ledgers at the Memorial.
Mike C has said that the Australian army sometimes kept other country registration numbers, my cab 12 C60L, AIF L4710841 being one of them, but this other registration they didn't keep.

There is a Holden badge on the engine cover, but that is the only connection to the truck being built in Australia. It doesn't have a CWO plate.

When the gentleman got me the information from the War Memorial he didn't understand a lot of the stuff he wrote down for me, therefore it is a bit hit and miss, he normally researched biographical data, and it would have been nice to know if my truck was a orphan or if it was in a bigger group of similar C60L,s.

I have taken a few before photos to put in the restoration section, but I would like to get some thoughts on this information first.

I know I am to excited and reading to much into a bit of paint.

Cheers Ken

[Keith Webb]

There are many differences between Canadian and Holden build trucks Ken, some of the most obvious are the Holden cab which differs in many details including the cowl vent being rectangular, windscreen frames having a slightly curved profile rather than flat like the Ford ones here, a smooth floor, doors without the round pressing in the centre of the inside pattern, and on the chassis the vehicle's chassis number is usually stamped on the left forward chassis rail.

I don't think I've ever encountered a 'DR' engine prefix, they are usually 'PR' or 'SR'.

On the date plate on top of the dash (another Aust practice) the Holden plant for assembly is also normally stamped after the chassis number, usually a single letter, M, S, B, P.

Interesting to hear about the under bonnet nomenclature. Let's see some of the pics in this thread as well, in particular the data plate.

[Ken Smith]

Good day Keith ,
It is a Canadian cab, it has all the things like checker floor, different vents, round hole in the top of the cab, windscreens different, I have several Australian 13 cabs both early and late so I know it is not an Australian cab.

I didn't know the bit about the vin plates on the dash being an Australian thing though, all the holes for the plates are in the engine cover, I wondered what was missing as the truck is so original, but if they have been shifted up to the top of the dash that makes sense.

The left hand chassis rail is marked like this,

4X8443- which according to David Hayward should be X48443-
71597
SM 6404 I have never seen a contract number on a chassis before

Photos coming .

Cheers Ken

[Keith Webb]

On reading your other posts I now realise this, it must have a fascinating story to tell, there are very few Canadian build Chevrolets in Australia apart from a few early post-war imports such as the C8AX.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

on the bottom layer of brownish paint is the number 4004, it is stencilled on and done very well, quite thick, it is possible that there are numbers before the first number 4 but there is no room for anything after the last number 4. Could this be a Indian registration number?

Very likely IMO Ken, as I happen to believe your vehicle is ex-Indian Army. If that's true, then you've found the last 4 digits of the rego. The later Indian numbering system comprised the DoD broad arrow followed by two small digits, followed by 4 large digits (ie. 4004 in your case). Try rubbing back the upper area of the doors, you may find the entire Indian registration number. Also the bumper bar, on the RH end or in the centre. These are the usual locations for Indian registration numbers, however I've also seen them on the front shell occasionally.

It's my belief that quite a few ex-Indian Army CMPs found their way to Australia, probably including my own first blitz pictured below in 1973, and a number of late production FGTs identified in Australia recently. I have a couple of theories as to how this may have occurred, one of them being ex-BCOF vehicles, acquired in Japan when other forces departed. BCOF initially comprised Australian, British, Indian, and NZ forces, but by late '48 only Australia remained, and it appears they inherited quite a few foreign CMPs left behind, which can be seen amongst their own Australian built CMPs. Some of these went on to the Korean war in 1950, many of which would have returned to Australia following armistice in '53, while those remaining in Japan would have returned with the BCOF, which finished up in '52. That would tie in with your post war Northern Command service records, which BTW have also been found under two FGT8 bonnets, formerly NT Force vehicles.

I'll dig up some photos to illustrate the above possibility. I'm very much hoping you find Indian Army rego on this vehicle, as proof positive they exist in Australia.

[Tony Wheeler]

Check out this one Ken - does the 7775 on the front shell reflect your 4004 placement?

Sea of Japan, 1950-09-28. Members of the 3rd Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (3RAR), sit and stand on top of military trucks on the deck of the United States troopship Aiken Victory which is transporting the battalion from Kure in Japan to Pusan and the war in Korea.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

SM 6404 I have never seen a contract number on a chassis before

It's possible this was Indian practice Ken. The only other example I'm aware of myself is Lauren Child's mysterious "F22" in the UK, which was contracted to India around mid '45: C291Q.L-W under SM6389 was for Tractor 4x4 FA W/Out Winch C291Q for India, 350 vehicles. Build date is 12 Nov 45, and while it's my belief it was built in India, others are of the view it was diverted to the UK.

Here are some more pics of foreign built C60L in Australian use in Japan, alongside Australian built CMPs. The one at the collapsed roadway appears to be ex-Indian Army (full length wooden body) while the other one appears to be ex-British Army (steel body & spare wheel carrier):



Gratuitous but rather good pics of late production Australian F60S tipper in action (Ford diff visible):



Regarding your Holden built engine cover Ken, presumably this got swapped at some stage during Australian service, possibly even in Japan.

Regarding your ARN 77821, the block 77001-79000 was originally allocated to New Armoured Vehicles (notified in Mechanization Circular No.307 of 4 March 1942) and it's my understanding that unused serials from earlier block allocations were used on vehicles acquired later overseas. I imagine Mike C can provide more info on this practice.

[Ken Smith]

Well here goes.



Yippee I have done it sought of.

[Keith Webb]

Well done Ken!

What a beauty and definitely an import!

In amazing condition too.

[Tony Wheeler]

That's truly spectacular Ken! Amazing to see that hatch in Australia, let alone in such good condition. What a great story this vehicle must have to tell. Congratulations on a fabulous find, well worth waiting 30 odd years to acquire!

Nice to see that Northern Command stencil again too, it's very familiar to me. I wonder if our vehicles were stablemates at some time.

I take it you've done some rubbing back since these pics, do you have any showing the 4004 serial?

[Mike Cecil]

This is an interesting find, and as Tony suggests, quite likely taken on charge in the 1950s. I'd agree with Tony that these might be brought to Aust with troops returning Korea/Japan.

The 77000 block was originally reserved for Aust AFVs (as Tony said), but we all know how many of them were actually made (the Dingos are in this block), so the remaining numbers were left vacant. If you look through what was later assigned to the unused ARNs, they are either 'clean ups' - odd batches of mixed vehicles - or new vehicles taken on charge in the 1950s (such as Wiles cookers, 2wheel dolly converters, and so on). Some have entries in biro, so are even later than that. This, in my opinion, squarely places the batch of 'X' prefixed C60L trucks as having been taken on charge in that period.

Most of that C60L batch were from SM6404 and SM6197 and have the 'X' prefix to the chassis number. Most are also 1944-45 production.Most were written off by Board of Survey in mid-1956 at 1 Base Ordnance Depot (Qld), so I'd suggest not too long after their arrival in Australia, having been in outside storage for a few years and had several paint jobs during that time to maintain them. Being all sold off in Qld, that's where the remains of the others are likely to be lurking!

As a full-import, the rear body would therefore be a Canadian all-steel GS body.

Particulars are:

77821, written off Board of Survey 1 BOD 13/6/1956, authorised for disposals list 17/7 1956. Chassis 4X844371597SM6404, engine number DR3750990

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hello Ken,

Amazing find, now see if we can reconstruct its history.
What if it could tell its tales about being built in Canada, shipped to India to be assembled and fitted with a locally made wooden body. Then taken into army service, again being shipped over vast distances and used in various countries, changes of ownership, only to be sold off and serve out it's working days at a farm. And now finally retired in your barn.
It will make for an interesting historic information sheet, if not a booklet of several pages.

Will be following this with great interest.

Hanno

[Ken Smith]

Thanks everyone for your input, I phoned the farmer today to give him an update and check up on a few C60L related things. He said I sounded like a kid in a toy shop.
The only photo he has of the truck with the wooden body on it was taken too far away to make out any details. The truck is in a paddock being loaded with bagged wheat. They were one of the first farms to change to bulk in our area, and that is when they dumped the wooden body for a hydraulic steel body made by another local farmer/engineer.
He does have a few photos of the truck when he shifted his house not once but twice, and I mean the whole house, on a couple of dollies he made himself. He is going to get some copies of the photos made for me.

Tony I would be 100% sure our trucks were kept together some time in their lives. Looks like yours lasted longer than mine in service. I have taken a photo of the 4004 it looks like 1004 but you can just make out the pointy side bit of the 4 if you look carefully .

Keith and Mike thanks for your input, your enthusiasm and sharing your knowledge.

Hanno that was an interesting chronology of events and probably close to the facts, the farmer wrote out a similar A4 page list of the trucks civilian history.

Ken

[Ken Smith]

Tony,I forgot to put in I don't want to sand the doors as the paint is to good, there is nothing on the bumper, but interestingly when I was rubbing the dust from the 4004 for the photo, another set of numbers has started to appear under all the ones I have found so far.

I think Mike is correct and these trucks sat around getting painted a lot.



What do you think of the weird looking 7 at the beginning, it is really thick paint?

Ken

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

What do you think of the weird looking 7 at the beginning, it is really thick paint?

If you rub back to the right of it Ken I believe you'll find another complete ARN stencil. Judging by the colours there were two complete repaints in Australian service, so I'd expect to find 3 separate ARN stencils. The two most recent ones are visible already, which means this 7 belongs to the original one.

I think you need to work on the lower serial, ie. the one you've just spotted. It appears to be the most recently painted IARN. The one you've already revealed is less than conclusive, mainly because the first digit is unclear (although I agree it's most likely a "4") but also because it looks to be from a different repaint, in a much larger digit size. The vertical looks way too fat to be part of the same stencil set, and as a "4" it's out of alignment with the 004. Maybe the correct "4" has already flaked off...? That's the problem with using a scraper, the flakes usually comprise several layers of paint, and you can wind up chasing the wrong digit. Based on my own experience I'd strongly recommend avoiding the scraper and sticking to wet rubbing only, working gently through each layer of paint, and taking lots of photos as you progress. For precision work on digits I use a folded corner of wet and dry, wearing magnifying spectacles. It's slow painstaking work but it's the only option when you have so many serial numbers superimposed. This is the trickiest one I've seen, you rarely if ever get so many serial number repaints, and they're usually above and below each other.

Fortunately the bottom serial is almost clear of the others, and with very little paint on top it should rub back quite easily. Also, since we already have 004 we only need to confirm the first digit, and check for anything to the left of it, which is hopefully the 2 smaller IARN digits. These appear to be in evidence already on earlier repaints, in particular what looks to be a small "4" jammed in at the left, possibly associated with the larger "4" stencil mentioned above. I'd expect the broad arrow to absent on the front shell, just like the pic below, as there's obviously no room.

I agree with you about the doors Ken, there's no guarantee the IARN is present anyway, as it was far from universal practice on these C6OL doors, judging by BCOF photos. Hopefully the front shell will yield a full IARN, without resorting the driver's side! Apologies for the bum steer on the bumper, I should have known it wouldn't be there on these vehicles.

Nice work on the bonnet, quite a bit of info there. I'm curious to know what "CLASS" refers to in this context. Interesting to see two stencils, which seems to indicate both repaints were Northern Command.

Anyway thanks for your all efforts Ken, it's priceless info you're providing here. I believe yours is the only IARN ever reported anywhere, and I'm pretty sure we'll never see another one!

[Ken Smith]

This post is about a F60L I have just purchased, I am putting it in here in the interest of keeping all my stuff together.
When I start putting the restoration pictures for the C60L and the F60L in the restoration section I will put them in different threads.

This F60L was only about 3klm from my place and I didn't know it existed until about a month ago. The previous owners father and uncles bought the truck at a disposal auction at Cecil Plains aerodrome just after WW2. The aerodrome was on a farm near the tiny town of Cecil Plains west of Brisbane. In 1945, 102 Squadron RAAF flew Liberator bombers from there, there are some good pictures on the AWM site of the bombers in their dispersals. To this day there is still heaps of steel cable in the trees for the camo nets.

Anyway back to the blitz, some details are Serial 14717, Engine 2G40613 F and ARN possibly 46660. I am confused with that as I thought 1941 F60L's started with 51***, 52*** or 53***. The spare cab I have is Serial 12891, Engine 2G41490 F and ARN 52498, which is earlier serial but later engine and ARN.

The blitz was deregistered in 1976, then did 10 years as a spray rig, then parked up, it has always been shedded. It has all doors and really is very complete, and not a rust hole anywhere, the previous owners grand son took the headlights out of it a couple of months ago to put in his Suzuki scrub basher, I have a feeling the 6 volt bulbs didn't like 12 volts. I will add that although he cut the wires he carefully put all the retaining screws and the headlight doors to one side.

It was painted at some stage with a incredibly thick coat of yellow primer and 2 coats of grey gloss. The yellow primer put me off a bit as it looks like desert sand, but from reading the forum I found that F60L's with a Australian roof hatch didn't go to the desert, so I sanded through it to find the ARN. There are 2 coats of green, both layers the ARN starts with 4 .

The truck has a very good home made wooden dropside body which I will leave on it, painted olive drab instead of the current lettuce green, and with a canopy it will be a reasonable copy of the original body.

Pictures to follow shortly.

I forgot to say the local truck wrecker offered double what I offered for the blitz, and at a family meeting the family agreed to let me have it, at my price, as long as they can follow its restoration progress.

Cheers Ken

[motto]

More power to you Ken. Looks as though the vehicles have fallen into good hands.
At the very least you beat the scrappy.
David

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

.....I forgot to say the local truck wrecker offered double what I offered for the blitz, and at a family meeting the family agreed to let me have it, at my price, as long as they can follow its restoration progress.

Cheers Ken

Hi Ken

This says something about the family, I'm sure they will appreciate the pictures of the progress with the big thing being it back on the road.

When you write up the history of the vehicles be sure to include this as part. You are fortunate to have so much of the vehicles history. Look forward to see pictures.

Cheers Phil

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Check out this one Ken - does the 7775 on the front shell reflect your 4004 placement?

Sea of Japan, 1950-09-28. Members of the 3rd Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (3RAR), sit and stand on top of military trucks on the deck of the United States troopship Aiken Victory which is transporting the battalion from Kure in Japan to Pusan and the war in Korea.


Attachment 69350

Good day,
I gave my Indian C60L a wipe over the rubbed back ARN today with my leather work glove, the rough glove seemed to shift the little bits of paint that have flaked since I polished it a couple of years ago.

In really good sunshine and with the angle I was looking at it the original registration number stood out very clearly, it is 501004. No photo as I had to look across the paint to read it. The Indian registration is on twice including on the original paint. There is no vertical arrow prefix, nor is there room for one on the second level of paint. I can't see the beginning of the first original registration, some of the Korean War pictures I have seen in the 6 digit series don't have the arrow.

I am searching the 4500 BCOF photos on the AWM site, no useful registration numbers yet. I have done the AWM Korean war ones and the closest I can get are registration numbers 497775, 497749, 497740, 497592, 483785, 463833. I am confident that my truck was in the Indian Army, as my numbers are the same style as the photos on the AWM.
If anyone spots a 5***** registration number on a Indian vehicle I would be interested in seeing it.

Cheers Ken

[Ken Smith]

I just found a photo of a wrecked BCOF, Chevrolet CMP based bus with the Indian Army registration; vertical arrow small 50 large 2733, so 502733.

The photo is one of several showing the bus, sadly the Australian soldier driving the bus died.

The photo number 147301 is on the AWM site. I don't know how to do links.

Ken

[Keith Webb]

Here it is for you.