surviving T16s

[pablo50cal]

1) another pictures of my carrier
now I need to remuve the engine because its making bad noise
I need to change the metals

2) two years ago

3) another place araund here , but dont make ilusions the people ho have tree carrier dont sale .

4) my carrier

5) dont forget me
pablo from argentina t16 n13588

[horsa]

T-16 on display at a muesum in South Africa. A friend posted the shots but I don't know where it is right now. Will update this posting with details once they are known.

It appears the engine exhaust is being routed out the side of the armour hull.

[centi521.]

us t-16 swiss version

he's one of 3 t-16 in switzerland (2 have the army and this one )

[RichardT10829]

The two that Kevin Weatcroft has,,, are for sale from what he told me they are shot up pretty bad and have no internals at all but can be yours for £4500 (this was two years back when i started looking for a carrier)

Rich

[Jason Ginn]

The Swords and Ploughshares Museum near Ottawa has a cut T-16 in its collection. Mike may be able to add some info but i alsways thought that this one had some interesting features such as the towing attachment and fenders/steps on the sides. I remember John Cameron, a one-time shareholder in this carrier, saying that it was found in the Ottawa area but I can't remember where. It has a been fitted with a newer Chevrolet in-line six with 3-speed trans mounted to the input shaft of the original Ford trans, and it seems that the tracks are on backwards.

I don't think that i've ever seen carrier wheels with round holes in them, are they T-16 specific?

j

[horsa]

The angle iron rails at the edge above the tracks would identify this one as having been in one of the Canadian Infantry Division's Support Battalions as part of a 4.2" mortar platoon. Course they didn't have wooden bodies back then

I've also never seen wheels with the round holes so not sure what they originated on unless they are late patten T-16 solid disc wheels with lightening holes bored into them. Or holes bored into them to make them appear closed to the stright spoke or curved spoke patterns.

[horsa]

Going through old photos from a trip to Normandy done 5-6 years ago, I came across some of a T-16 in one of the small museums. Its been restored and repainted so maybe this should really be in the Surviving T-16s message thread.

Sign indicates a British T-16 from the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division. Markings at the bottom have FS and July 1944. Not sure if that indicates when it landed, was destroyed or something else. Anyone familiar with French abbreviations like this?

[Alex van de Wetering]

David,

Great pictures! I recognize the museum.....it's the Bayeux memorial before the owner of most of the material removed his belongings after an argument with the museum staff.

Alex

[Maurice Donckers]

The Carrier in Bayeux , came from Pounds , and was not a left over from the battles , They also got the M10 and Churchill from there.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

T16 in the Militärmuseum Full, Zwitserland - see www.militaer-museum.ch. Reportedly a new addition to the Museum's inventory, it will require a full restoration (one of its previous owners tried to paint it in the Caunter camouflage scheme?).


http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimo...7624088553191/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

T16-based supply vehicle / runabout at Port-aux-Français, French Southern and Antarctic Lands.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7219744

Must be the most Southernly located Universal Carrier?!?

"Comments (1) | JLH974 on March 1, 2008
Ancienne chenillette installée devant le premier bâtiment de la météo à Port-Aux-Français qui sert maintenant de bibliothèque."

[Lynn Eades]

The Falklands island one is at approx 51 degrees south. (More down around the corner than 49 degrees south)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

T16 in the Biafran Musuem, Umuahia Ibeku, Abia, Nigeria.

Looks like an ex-Swiss example with raised sides. Battle damage in rear right hand corner?

[andrew honychurch]

i dont think this one has been posted on here before. Could be for sale if anyone is interested pm me.

[horsa]

That carrier was build shortly after Mark's that never left the USA and still has the early U.S. production features seen in the manuals. Stuff like the angled mount for a Boys A/T rifle in the front windows instead of the later block of wood bolted in place. And it still has the original pattern gun mounts welded to the inner hull walls that could hold a rifle or a Thompson SMG. Almost every carrier had these removed and replaced with the pair located in slightly different places for holding a rifle or a Bren. If you ever wondered what the curved weld marks were on the hull under the paint, this was it. It also retains the early large rear internal locker and never had wading skirts added to the sides.

Note it has a British TD number so these must have been provided by the War Department and stenciled onto the hulls as they came off the production line in the U.S.A.

Mark sold this carrier last year and Brennon here in Texas owns it now.

[andrew honychurch]

interesting stuff David. I had seen some pictures of this Carrier which is very exciting. Quite a rarity, I wonder if there were any others that never left the US. My Carrier is numbered T101616 from memory, no "D" any idea why that would be? I also have the large boxes in the rear as does the Carrier in my post above

[tankbarrell]

The TD number is the US Ordnance serial number, nothing to do with the British army. The T number, as in T101616 is the British WD number.

[andrew honychurch]

thanks Adrian. most kind

[colin jones]

I too have a T16 here in Adelaide and as far as I know there is'nt any others in Aust or is there !
Colin.

[horsa]

I'd understood the "T" was used on standard duty carriers and "TD" was used on carriers assigned for towing guns. I haven't seen many original T-16 data plates still mounted to vehicles with their original markings to compare.

My carrier had the TD number painted on it but no data plates to cross reference. The markings were done with an etching white paint as seen on the early T-16 and they ate through the primer and into the hull itself. We could still read it even after having the hull chemically stripped.

[tankbarrell]

As indicated on that data plate, the TD number is the US Ordnance number and is issued regardless of end user.

The T number is issued by the British Ministry of Supply at point of order and T is merely the prefix for tracked armoured vehicles other than SP guns (S) and amphibians (P).

[andrew honychurch]

given that my T16 data plate is missing, but I know where the date of manufacture is stamped, and I have the T number after sanding back the paint, is there any way I can find the other numbers out? I have a new set of repro data plates that I would like to stamp up and wondered whether there are any other numbers stamped on the hull, or indeed whether US records exist, either with the Ford Company Archive or the US Military or am I banging my head against a brick wall with that one?

David, if the TD meant for towing artillery, what would have defined that in the way they were made, as all tow hitch equipment was added in the UK along with the wading fixings?

[andrew honychurch]

what about this serial number then/??


http://www.asphm.com/vehicules/unive...ier_t16_17.jpg

point being, Adrian, that this original plate has a T number not a TD. I think there is some misunderstandings going on here! Not sure what is correct and what each nomenclature means?

[ajmac]

As Adrian said the war department number, for anything tracked, the 'T' number, originated in England, when an order was placed a block of numbers was allocated to that contract, I have seen some of the Loyd Carrier contract cards held by the tank museum earlier in the year, there may be T16 cards too. What does nigels carrier book volume 2 say, his section on loyds in volume 1 has all the WD number lists for loyds.
The data plate would have had the WD number stamped on it as well as a vehicle serial number which was unique to the manufacturer, the T16 parts book refers to change points using the vehicle serial number. It goes on to say:
vehicle serial numbers were first assigned to each hull when fabricated rather than the final assembled vehicle, this number prefixed by FS should be stamped on the transmission and final drive housing. After hull number 1000 the vehicles were assigned a serial number without prefix or suffix, it was stamped on the top upper right hand front plate also transmission case and final drive. So you should be able to have a stab at your vehicle serial number my havin a look in these places...obviously be careful of parts that may have been replaced in service.

I presume the TD part is perhaps a corruption of the T number, I have seen a Loyd data plate stamped CTxxxx, which doesn't exist in the wartime contract cards, however the vehicle fitted the bill for being the number without the C. Like all of these things not as black and White as it first seems :-)

[horsa]

This is why I thought the number on the data plate and in paint on the vehicle was the British census number. They were built under contract in the USA for England and the "T" or "TD" number was painted while in the USA on the three designated locations as specified by the contract.

No USA vehicle has a T or TD code so this must have been done based on vehicle contract orders that had been placed already. And we've seen examples of the T-16 with the white vehicle numbers like mine had, in the same three locations. Some had TD prefix like mine and some only had T. Postwar examples the Swiss bought were painted over, but the original numbers are still etched into the hull under the paint.

My understanding is the Welbikes build in the UK had their numbers with the "C" prefix painted at the production factory based on contracts so it would stand to reason the same thing happened with the T-16. Since the U.S. army wasn't getting the vehicles, anyone doing record keeping could simply have gone by the vehicle's Ford serial number which is stamped with the date on the front armour. And that number has nothing to do with the sequence of the T or TD number.

In terms of your question on towing assignment Andrew, I have no idea. The towing assembly and wading skirt squares were definitely added after the vehicles got to the UK. My towing assembly and several others I've seen were welded directly over the rear vehicle markings. And the markings on the side were partially obscured by the front wading skirt squares and so got repainted lower down on the side after the modifications were done. Odds are there was some minor specification difference in a vehicle ordered as a tug, but so far we haven't identified a trend in the variations in parts encountered.

Shot attached has been posted before and shows a field of T-16s in the UK that have not been modified with towing assemblies or wading fixtures. Note the numbers and prefix on the rear lower armor of the vehicles that haven't been converted into tents. And the other shot has a T-16 with numbers in the same format as my carrier had with dots behind the vehicle prefix. It only has a "T." prefix but the space is there for a "D." before the number begins. And the third shot shows another T-16 with similar spacing. But they were not as conscientious about doing a good job of painting over the "D." which makes you wonder what else was going on back then.

Note: These are wartime shots and not surviving T-16s so it's a bit of overlap with the other old T-16 message thread. But they are needed for reference here I think.

[ajmac]

I like the 1st photo, note all the Loyd Carriers in the distance!

[andrew honychurch]

well its a bit of mystery. Interesting to note on your photos David, that the vehicle in service in Europe does not have the wading blocks welded on and I assume that it doesnt have the tow equipment either, which may mean that these were added after they had been in service? As for the TD and |T designation, my vehicle is a latish one, June 1944 manufacture from recollection, I think all the vehicles I have seen so far with TD are earlier than this. So, I wonder whether there was a change in designation at some stage. I am sure it will be possible to find out for sure what the difference relates to. Someone needs to go digging at the Tank Museum!

[horsa]

Yep, the answer is sure to be buried out there somewhere in the archives.

I'd also noticed both of those carriers in service didn't have the wading skirt squares on the hulls. Not sure about the towing assembly though. The latest TD marked hull I've come across was built 3-1944. So far the latest hull with wading squares is Ray's which has an illegible double digit month in 1944. So the last quarter of that year either way and the serial number is 12683 making it almost 7000 units after mine was built.

Canadian wartime records from February 1944 indicated all of their T-16 vehicle allotment would be for 4.2-inch mortars and towing 6-pdr A/T guns. But a shortage for the Normandy invasion had them temporarily change that to all T-16s being assigned as 4.2-inch mortar carriers. Once production caught up again, then they resumed assignments as gun tugs and likely other roles as well. So far no records of British assignments have been located that I know of. It would be nice to find history on your carrier Andrew, since it stayed in the UK. Mine and most now in the USA were part of the British vehicles sold to the Swiss after the war. So it is unknown if they were British or Canadian during the war. The only trends with them are they all have been TD or T marked and all had the wading skirt squares and towing assembly on them, regardless of the number prefix.

[andrew honychurch]

indeed, I would like to find out some history of mine. I was told that it was one of a batch of very low mileage T16s that got sold to Pounds of Portsmouth a well known scrap metal dealer here in the UK. The carriers were standing on an airfield in the midlands as storage and were supposedly driven to the scrapyard. It shows 900 miles on the speedo, so that would tally. I did find that there is some sand coloured paint in places and indeed some realy golden desert sand as well. My guess is it may have been prepared for Suez and been there and then brought back to the UK and put in store. I will one day try to visit the tank museum and discover more.

[tankbarrell]

It would seem upon further checking that the TD number is the WD number though why the D was added is a mystery. The WD number range for T-16 was T92001 to T107000. As the D only seems to appear on the earlier listings, it may well have been a mistake?

My earlier position was based on the fact that in US production, the Ordnance number is not the same as the USA registration number.

You never stop learning!