Kiwi CMP to be restored

[Ian Tozer]

Hi

I am based at the top of South Island of New Zealand and have become involved in a wee truck that has been recovered from atop a hill and is now housed in a shed at a certain location.

Two of us are seriously looking to restore our wee beasty back to original.

It has all of the plates and original markings etc and via these forums I have already dug up a wealth of information.

On the paint there are signs of original markings as well as the original desert paint scheme.

Photos will follow as I get the camera sorted out, but for now if anyone could provide further information for me it would be appreciated.

It is not a C8AX model. Here are the plates and door numbers etc

Door Serial No.
Z4924876

Plates....

1.
General Motors of Canada
Oshawa, Canada

2.
Vehicle Model
C-15441-M-VAN-5

3.
Publications applying to this vehicle
Spare Parts List R11C-C1
Maintenance Manual R11C-C1

4.
Chasis Model C-15441-M
Cab Model 13
Chassis Serial 2344419659
Engine Serial WR 9840806
Order No SM 2564
Date of Mfg July 21-42

So if anyone could help out with further info etc on this we would appreciate it.

There is signs of the round black circle with the white A in it that was used for vehicles belonging to HQ and internal training units in the NZ Army but my guess is this would have been added post war after the vehicle returned here.

Unfortunately the back tray was obviously replaced at some point by a wooden flat bed which has rotted away so of special interest is what type of rear tray pattern would have been used.

Judging by the mfg date and paint layers it does appear to have served overseas prior to coming here.

Cheers
Ian

[cletrac (RIP)]

The Van 5 used the 2H1 body which was wood and metal construction. The floor was wood. Here's a picture of one I've got.
The info is from Military Vehicle Profiles and the pic is from the Factory Photos CD. The 2J1 would be for the later Van 5 trucks say 1944 or so.

[Ian Tozer]

Hi David.

Thanks for the reply and information.

Is there any known way to decipher where the vehicle was delivered, I am about to contact the NZ Army to see if their records show anything for the vehicle.

Cheers
Ian

[Mike K]

I dont think you will have any luck with records search in NZ ..Others have tried it and failed

David Hayward will help you with the SM contract details ... he is usually lurking around this forum ....DAVID HELP

Having a British Z number means it probably was issued to NZ forces in Nth Africa or Italy . Its a rare vehicle in NZ , consider yourself lucky

And, keep away from these critters We know how you guys react when Sheep are involved , it's hards to control yourself, but please try.

MIKE

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by cletrac

The Van 5 used the 2H1 body which was wood and metal construction. The floor was wood. Here's a picture of one I've got.
The info is from Military Vehicle Profiles and the pic is from the Factory Photos CD. The 2J1 would be for the later Van 5 trucks say 1944 or so.

Just a note, correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall 'VAN' referred to a body (2C1, 2H1, etc.) with seats, bows and a tarp. 'GS' on the data plate meant the identical body but without those bits, and a simple flat canvas cover.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Bruce, that's the way it works, all right.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

These are the known (or likely) trucks to the same Demand:

2844419324 ENGINE # WR3,840,943 S/M 2564 JULY 16 1942

2844419447 ENGINE # WR3,840,887
2844419639
2844419659 ENGINE # WR3,840,806 S/M 2564 JULY 21 1942
2844419686
2844419763


British Ministry of Supply Demand Supply-Mechanical 2564 was allocated Census Numbers Z 4923997 to 4925484, for 3/4 ton '15 cwt Office 4 x 4 Articized'. I thin k these bodies were built by Canadian Top & Body Company. It has also been suggested that there were some Breakdown bodies included in the overall Demand.

We know from Canadian figbures that 1,488 had been delivered by 1st October 1942.

As to how it ended up in NZ I can only surmise that the truck was delivered to the UK, assembled here, then shipped out to the Mid-East and issued to the NZEF. It was then 'sold' to the NZ Government and then shipped on to NZ after the forces returned. What a marvellous find, and to locate the Census Number is outstanding!

[Ian Tozer]

Thank you all very much, yes we were aware of a significant find when I saw the plates and worked out what I was looking at.

The panels include the faint outlines of hand brush painted "Mickey Mouse Ear" camoflauge pattern that will be mapped and redone as part of the restoration.

It has 17,200 original miles on the clock, with the rectangular pattern dash.

Photos will be collected again this weekend and posted Sunday (Kiwi time)

The truck has an aura about it that gets everyone who stands near it, there is just something different about it.

We have labelled it "King Rat" at the moment, it fits and when you see the pictures you will understand the reference to a Rat Racer hot rod.

Apart from the rear tray the only parts missing are the water condenser from the left front guard, the holes are still there and the rifle metal racks in the cab.

Both of the wooden blocks where the butt of the .303 sat were still fixed in the cab and will be used to model new ones for the restoration, or may be used as is which is more than likely.

The most mind bending part for me was seeing and hearing her turn over and run at the weekend, just a rewind on the alternator, some new wires and lubricant and away she went.

A head job and valve grind and we are happy campers with the motor.

This truck has been waiting for this.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Michael Mouse's appendages-style camo seems to confirm that this was a British-assembled truck that was then shipped out subsequently. There might even be some form of assembly plant detail somewhere..

I have to say that this is an amazing find and it clearly has been almost around the world.

[Ian Tozer]

Well that was something out of the blue for the weekend.

Here are the picis of the King Rat.

As I said the door markings and Mickey Mouse pattern are vey evident. The highly interesting part that isn't as clear in these pictures is that these were painted on by hand using a brush, overlapping round circles were used a close look at the fourth image will show this effect.

[Ian Tozer]

Now comes the next part. I will return next weekend with a rather suprising find.

Through a friend I got told of (and visited) a local gentlman who has 3 1942-1943 Chev C15A cab 13 CMP's in his shed, in working condition and as original to still be driveable, with rifle racks, rear vision mirrors intact etc. 2 are original motor 6V and one has been dieseled and is 12V.

"Don't Worry" he says, "I have the original motor and parts over there under a tarp." Priceless.

Along with two complete 2J1 bodies. That is complete to the tyre racks, toolboxes, mud flaps and seats. He then apologised that the wood was rotting but shouldn't be hard to fix.

He took the bodies off and left them under an awning off his shed when he converted them to flat deck trays, funny the things you keep on a farm.

He bought these in the late 60's from Otago and ran them on his farm up to a few years back when they were put into the shed.

Then he apologised again and said that he had had a fourth one on his old farm up to last year when he gave it away to someone who had pestered him about it. He said "Should have kept it, you could have had it or free. Now where did I put that beer so I can cry in it.

These trucks are so mint that all of the seats and springs are fine, the rear sliding windows are good. The only thing is the top hatch was removed and plated over, but that is not a biggy.

I have seen more rust in a 10 year old Jap Rice Burner than these three trucks have together.

Pictures and further plate details will be forthcoming after next Saturday when I visit him with the obligatory beers for a session of "Blokes in the Shed" looking at trucks. All of the trucks have their plates.

We have started to talk about sorting one of these fine machines and a body to be restored, my wife is really excited as well about this prospect so things are looking up al around.

Oh, anybody want dimensions etc for the bodies give me a yell, I will be getting as many pics as possible next weekend.

So between that, working in a major Mass Casulaty Accident scenario with our Fire Brigade helping the Ambos do some training (Chopping up rice burners is a great tension release) as well as attending two nasty accidents overnight, my weekend has been fairly normal. NOT.

A shed with three running CMP's in it, and it wasn't a dream.

[Ian Tozer]

So things keep getting interestinger and interestinger.

Stopped round for a gossip with with of the old Fire Brigade life members, into his 90's and as sharp as a tack he is.

Mr X as we shall refer to him is what is reffered to as "a bit of a character" round here.

Served WWII in the Pacific in NZ Arny saw a few things, including being probably one of the few people who has, in his words "been bloody stupid enough to fall of the edge of a US carrier in the middle of the pacific, swim round for an hour or so and get plucked out by a US destroyer".

He has been working on vehicles, trucks, electronics you name it since he was a young fella, so has probably forgotten a damn site more than most can remember.

Took Mr X for a wee drive to see the truck pictured above. He laughed his head off, yes, new he new about it. I can now say it definetly served NZ Ary North Africa, up through Italy and was returned to NZ post war, sold ex - Waiouru Military Camp 68 and purchased from Gillies in Otago after that.

New it on the farm he did when it was working.

As to the mickey mouse ears and obvious brush marks. All of the die hard Spray Painters can stop now and get your 4 inch brushes out.

The obvious circle patterns of brush marks led me ask Mr X how it was done.

"Crickey Mate" says Mr X "Bloody obvious isn't it? They cut a circle out of plywood and ran the damn paint brush round the inside, then filled the circle, we did it the same way in the islands."

I say "so overlaping circles through a wood template and then brush the gaps?"

"Yup, and shake your bones while your at it, because you have about 10 trucks to do in a couple of hours so don't p!ss about" he says with a laugh.

Some people may call this heresy, but I will do whatever truck is restored by the same method.

"Um silly question" I asked not wanting to appear as a fool "The size of the circles wouldn't happen to match a Kiwis helmet would it?"

"Where the F else where we going to find a circle" answered Mr X as we walked back to my 4x4 so I could take him to the pub for a round.

Where a lot more was discussed and a new level reached in the way we work together.

Funny what happens when you throw a couple of Fireys together for a while, they either break things, or fix them.

[Mike K]

Nice story. Not many of those old timers left now . And, they have the direct knowledge we can only guess at .

When I first got a ham radio license, there were many ex service guys from WW2 on the air pounding away on morse keys . Not many around any more, they are virtually all gone more or less.


The brush painting of camo is well known . I've seen it on two of my vehicles here .

Mike

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Nice story. Not many of those old timers left now . And, they have the direct knowledge we can only guess at .

When I first got a ham radio license, there were many ex service guys from WW2 on the air pounding away on morse keys . Not many around any more, they are virtually all gone more or less.


The brush painting of camo is well known . I've seen it on two of my vehicles here .

Mike

Hi Mike

I used to spend a lot of time with an older mate, Frank Taylor who was a Ham Radio Operator, His call sign was. VK5-TG. I worked with Frank who is now in his 90's, He was in the RAAF in WW2 as a wireless operator in the Pacific. I only wish I had written down the hours of conversations we had over the years, but you don't realize this until you yoursef are getting older. Frank loved Morse Code and preferred it to voice, you may even had contact with him yourself over the years, Check you QSO Cards.

Cheers

Tony

[Mike K]

yes Tony

I did contact a few VK5's years ago... cannot recall your mate . One chap was in the Middle East as a wireless operator. I asked him about trucks and he kindly loaned me a pic of himself in front of his wireless truck..in Syria , which is now in the news !

Here is the pic.. the truck is a 1940 01Y Ford 1 tonner, typically a wireless truck used by the AIF . He said his job involved rebuilding the radio batteries every 3 months . He would use a blow torch and remove the tar and install new lead plates and new acid etc. He said the radio sets were AWA 101 made here in Sydney . I have a few of them .

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I did contact a few VK5's years ago... cannot recall your mate . One chap was in the Middle East as a wireless operator. I asked him about trucks and he kindly loaned me a pic of himself in front of his wireless truck..in Syria , which is now in the news !

Hi Mike

Yep I am sure you would have been in contact with Frank, he spent a lot of time "on air". and I would also go on at times using his set and call sign. I did a course some years ago for a Ham Licence, I still have all the books, but I found Morse code not as interesting, but you could not get your licence with out it. Frank would tell me all about the times under canvas at the air strips and when he was in the Catalinas, he would still well up with tears at some of the stories and terrible things when they were being bombed and straffed by the Japenese planes. His memory is not so good now. Sad..

Cheers mate, thanks for the contact.

Tony

[Ian Tozer]

Back from the shed after my second visit and some details.

3 x C8AX's in a row.

Plates details (stuffed some of the rubbing and didn't realise it but I think we have enough)

All three plated from General Motors of Canada Oshawa Plant.

1
Chasis Model C15441
Cab Model Blank
Chassis XH 8448-172
Engine No XPP386287
Order No 2396
Date of Mfg 5-3-43

Spare Parts List C8AX-01
Maintenance Manual MB-C1

2
All the same except
Chasis XH 8448-033
Engine FR 3862793

Wahoo 2 made on the same day.

3.

Dated 5-5-54

And I stuffed the rubbing up and can't read it. Oh well another trip needed.

Picis follow of the trucks and rear bodies which are stacked against the shed. Note that two of the trucks have convoy lights and the rear solinoid for the diff light.

6 stud wheels and horizontal tow rings on the front bumper.

Yarning with the owner he casually mentioned he has around 3 1/2 ton of spares like new crown wheels diffs motors etc along with small parts like 6 original canvas door screens. Yes they are the originals he was always interested in the numbers printed on them.

We will dig them out next time for some more picis.

[Ian Tozer]

As you can see they are in rough condition, restoring these will be a mission.

[Ian Tozer]

The bodies will take a bit more work but the metal is basically sound.

[Ian Tozer]

The tow hook was beefed up post war as they were used for towing 105 MM Howitzers for the Deaf Army people before being retired.

Ever had a conversation with an ex gunner at a normal volume level?

[Ian Tozer]

After the war our fire brigades and rural fire teams were looking for vehicles.

So here is the damage they did to these fine vehicles.

One of the trucks has red paint over kahki green and appears to have been at one time an Army Fire Truck in its life.

While it is in the best condition running gear wise and body, I am arranging to get some of the other bits off the other trucks to make it complete.

Now comes a quandry. As a current serving New Zealand Fire Service volunteer firefighter do I restore it back to delivery condition, or turn it into my own wee fire truck as it would have been configured.

Hmmm, beer and thinking time.

Anyway here are the picis of some of the fire trucks.

[Ian Tozer]

You can't look at these without being proud of their butt uglyness.

However over the years I have seen trucks show up at bush fires that make your eyes water and say WTF, right before they pump an astonishing amount of water and disappear into the back blocks where mountain goats have problem walking.

Whatever works best stays around for a long time.

[Mike K]

So have you done the deal ?

BTW my new avatar is a Melbourne thing .
Grand Sale..............grand sale..........grand sale--------Brunswick and Footscray ..

[Ian Tozer]

Hi Mike

25 sheep and it is done.

We shook on it last week, now it is a case of working out the details and setting things up.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks for the data..I have added them to my listing. However the engine # of the first truck appears to be missing a digit and it should start FR etc.

This is how it shapes up now:

ALL S/M 2394: [ASSEMBLED BY G.M. NEW ZEALAND CODE XH]

XH8448-016 ENGINE # FR3852612 MFGD. 5 - 5 – 43 DOOR NUMBER 23069
XH 8448-033 ENGINE # FR3862793 ,FGD. 5-3-43
XH8448-067
XH 8448-068 ENGINE # FR3852738
XH8448-073 ENGINE # FR3867782 MFGD. 5 - 3 – 43
XH8448-079 ENGINE # FR3862924 MFGD. 5 3-43
XH8448-080 ENGINE # FR3852622
XH8448-087 ENGIINE # FR3838752 MFGD. 5 3-43
XH8448-102 ENGINE # FR3838726
XH8448-161 ENGINE # FR3838745 MFGD. 5 3 43
XH9448-172 ENGINE # FR386287 MGD. 5.3.43
XH8448-199 ENGINE # FR? MFGD. 5 3-43
XH8448-229 ENGINE # FR3863719 MFGD. 5 3-43
XH8448-252
XH8448-254 ENGINE # FR3863431 MFGD. 5 4-43
XH8448-273 ENGINE # FR3863445
XH8448-275 MFGD. 5 4 43 ?
XH8448-322 ENGINE # FR3863983 MFGD. 5 4-43
XH8448-339 ENGINE # FR3864029 MFGD. 5-4-43
XH8448-377 ENGINE # FR3863573 MFGD. 5 5-43
XH8448-382 ENGINE # FR3863937 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-392 ENGINE # FR3864366MFGD. 5-5-43
XH8448-394 ENGINE # FR3863668 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-419 ENGINE # FR3863618 MFGD. 5 5-43
XH8448-427 ENGINE # FR3863894 MFGD. 5 5-43
XH8448-428 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-436 FR3864114 MFD 5 MAY 43 NZ 25690
XH8448-452
XH8448-459 ENGINE # FR3863469 MFGD. 5-5-43
XH8448-481 ENGINE # FR3863988 MFGD. 5-5-43
XH8448-496 ENGINE # FR3863872 MFGD. 5 5-43
XH8448-497 ENGINE # FR3,863875 MFGD. # 5- 5-43
XH8448-502 ENGINE # FR3863593 MFGD. 5 5-43
XH8448-518 ENGINE # FR3864176 MFGD. 5-5-43
XH8448-564 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-594 ENGINE # FR3863668 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-606 ENGINE # FR3864085 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-611 ENGINE # FR 3864083 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-622 ENGINE # FR3863893 MFGD. 5 4-43
XH8448-634 ENGINE # FR3864089 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-647 ENGINE # FR3864026 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-650 ENGINE # FR3883923 MFGD. 5 MAY-43
XH8448-657 ENGINE # FR3864068 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-718 ENGINE # FR3864330 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-721 ENGINE # FR3864172 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-742 ENGINE # FR3863886 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-747 ENGINE # PR3963973 DATE 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-833 ENGINE # FR3863827 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-834 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-857 ENGINE # FR3864045 MFGD.5 JUNE 43
XH8448-870 ENGINE # FR38635?4 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH9448-887 ENGINE # FR3863776 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-890 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH 8448-891 ENGINE # FR38638?2
XH8448-903

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Ian - when you are ready you will need one of these.

Salesman Bob

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

So have you done the deal ?

BTW my new avatar is a Melbourne thing .
Grand Sale..............grand sale..........grand sale--------Brunswick and Footscray ..

Great avatar Mike!

Ian, reading this thread with great interest and envy....you bugger.
Just kidding, great find.

[Ian Tozer]

Bob.

Will give you a call when we get that far, which may not be all that far away.

I have a few things to sort out first

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another from S/M 2396

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2802...4676703117781/

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Hanno

Is this data plate typical of Australian/Holden assembly with the information clearly stamped from the front or top side........ and the Canadian factory ones are stamped from the rear giving raised letters????

re-reading that particular thread makes one realize how many precious members have since left this planet!!!!! ....I do miss them!!