WW1: Sept 16, 1915

Hi. I notice this forum is about WW2 but I also have an interest in finding out about what happened on Sept. 15, 1916.

My grandmother (Rifleman Edward Smith's mother) lost two cousins (they were brothers) on that date during WW1, but were in different places on that day?.

One, Private Archibald James Viznaugh went MIA age 24(I presume because he is MIA because he's listed as `Remembered' on the Vimy Memorial. Hewas with the Canadian Infantry, Manitoba Regiment, 27th Battalion.

The other brother was Private William Viznaugh, age 18, buried Bapaume Post Military Cemetery. He was with the 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles, Saskatchewan Regiment.

(Their parents moved back and forth between Sask and Manitoba hence any contradiction regards place of birth etc. It was a case of Both/And, not contradictory.)

Can someone in here either tell me anything regards this date/events or at least tell me where I'm likely to find out?

Thanks a lot

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

The Battle of Flers-Courcelette.

Brief Description:

"From the middle of September, however, to the middle of November the Corps bore its full share of the Somme fighting. The first important action in which the Canadians were engaged was the capture of Sugar and Candy trench and the sugar refinery at Courcelette on September 15, this action is notable not only for the fierce fighting involved but by the fact that for the first time Tanks were used in cooperated with the Canadian infantry. The following day the Canadians swept on and captured the village of Courcelette itself, in one of the most successful operations of the Somme fighting. For many days the Germans strove stubbornly to retake Courcelette; but their efforts resulted only in further loss of ground and further punishment."

A picture of the Canadian Courcelette Memorial is attached.

More details to follow regarding the Battle of Courcelette.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

A brief outline of the Battle of Courcelette on the 15th September, 1916:

The Battle of Flers-Courcelette 15 - 22 September, 1916

27th (City of Winnipeg) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F. - 6th Infantry Brigade, 2nd Canadian Division

1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles, C.E.F. - 8th Infantry Brigade, 3rd Canadian Division

Battle of Courcelette 15 September, 1916:

The battle began at 06:20 am 15th September, 1916.

Objectives of the 2nd Canadian Division, making the main effort astride the Albert-Bapaume road, were the defences in front of Courcelette. These included Candy Trench, the strongly fortified ruins of a sugar factory, which was a key objective, beside the Bapaume road and 1500 yards of Sugar Trench, which cut across Candy Trench. On the 2nd Cdn Div's left were the 3rd Canadian Division, who's front was held by the 8th Infantry Brigade, providing flank protection. The 2nd Canadian Division had seven tanks allotted to it in support of their attack.

The assaulting Brigades for the 2nd Cdn Div were the: 4th Infantry Brigade on the right (east) of the road, with three tanks and the 6th Infantry Brigade on the left (west) of the road, with three tanks. The five assaulting Battalions, right to left (east to west) were the: 18th, 20th, 21st, 27th and 28th (approx. 4,000 men).

At 06:20 am, the Canadian attack began, with the 18th Battalion attacking Candy Trench, towards Martinpuich, on the right, the 20th and 21st Battalions straddling the road, attacking towards Candy Trench and the 27th and 28th Battalions attacking towards the Sugar Factory and Sugar Trench.

The fighting was severe, with the troops advancing through very heavy machine-gun, rifle and artillery fire, but within fifteen minutes the five assaulting Battalions had broken through the German front lines (200 metes from their start line) and were pushing on to assault the main German lines in front of Courcelette, Sugar and Candy Trenches, which were secured by 07:30 am, after severe hand-to-hand fighting for their possession. While pushing on from Sugar Trench, towards Courcelette village, the 27th Battalion came under extreme German machine-gun fire. By 6 pm, the Canadian follow-up Battalions (22nd, 25th and 26th) had entered Courcelette village and by 16th, it was firmly in Canadian hands.

Also at 06:20 am, on the extreme left of the Canadian line, 1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles assaulted the German positions about Mouquet Farm, which was heavily defended and linked by a catacomb of underground subways. Having captured this position, it was lost again later in the day by a German counter-attack and taken again by the 2nd Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles on the evening of the 16th.

Thats about all there is to tell of the rolls of the 27th Battalion and the 1st Battalion, C.M.R., for the 15th of September.

Have attached a map of the assault.

Hope all this helps.

Cheers

As ever...you've helped big time! Thanks
for putting the info together on Archie and William, the battle, and placing them (the map!!!)
It was also good to see the photo of the memorial


You must have an amazing library at home! How are your eyes

General QUESTION: for the men who were listed as MIA, presumed dead and `remembered' on memorials like Vimy, were some of the MIA's actually POWS who were just never seen again? Or were MIA's men whose bodies were known to `be there' but were unidentifiable?

Thank You

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Some details regarding the 27th Battalion and the 1st C.M.R.

27th (City of Winnipeg) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F.

Point of Mobilization: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Mobilization Authority: General Order No. 36/1915, Dated: 15th March, 1915

Military District 10

Recruiting Areas:
Manitoba - Brandon, Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg
Ontario - Rainy River and Kenora

Service:

Canada: 20th October, 1914 to 17th May, 1915
England: 28th May, 1915 to 17th September, 1915
France: 18th September, 1915 to 12th April, 1919

Returned Canada: 13th May, 1919, abroad the 'NORTHLAND'

Effective Date of Disbandment: 15th September, 1920

Battle Honours:

"Mount Sorrel"," Somme, 1916, '18'", "Flers-Courcelette",
"Thiepval", "Ancre Heights", "Arras, 1917, '18'", "Vimy, 1917",
"Arleux", "Scarpe, 1917, '18'", "Hill 70", "Ypres, 1917",
"Passchendaele", "Amiens", Drocourt-Queant",
"Hindenburg Line", "Canal du Nord", "Cambrai, 1918",
"Pursuit to Mons", "France and Flanders, 1915-18"


Victoria Cross Winners:

Lieutenant R.G. Combe (Posthumous)(Dated: 27th June, 1917)
Private J.P. Robertson (Posthumous)(Dated: 11th January, 1918)

1st Canadian Mounted Rifles Regiment

Point of Mobilization: Brandon, Manitoba
Mobilization Authority: General Order No. 36/1915, Dated: 15th March, 1915

Military District 10

Recruiting Areas:
Manitoba - Brandon
Saskatchewan - Saskatoon, Yorkton

Service:

Canada: 5th November, 1914 to 12th June, 1915
England: 19th June, 1915 to 22nd September, 1915
France: 22nd September, 1915 to 1st January, 1916

Reorganized and Redesignated in France: 1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles,
1st January, 1916
(Formed from 1st C.M.R. and 3rd C.M.R., and drafts from England)

Service:

France: 1st January, 1916 to 13th Febuary, 1919

Effective Date of Disbandment: 15th November, 1920

Battle Honours:

"Mount Sorrel", " Somme, 1916", "Flers-Courcelette",
"Ancre Heights", "Arras, 1917, '18'", "Vimy, 1917", "Hill 70",
"Ypres, 1917", "Passchendaele", "Amiens", "Scarpe, 1918",
"Hindenburg Line", "Canal du Nord", "Cambrai, 1918",
"Valenciennes", "France and Flanders, 1915-18"

Cheers

Amazing! Hey, give an obsessive compulsive -like me - unanswered questions, the time, and an internet connection and hey... satisfaction gauranteed! I feel the same about that photo of my Uncle I'm searching for...it WILL manifest!!!

Thanks...I'm really glad to get the info you posted here because when I found those two relatives/brothers, I just wanted to know more about them and the war that they fought, and who they served with.

No Lakes or anything named after them as that only happened with WW2 and Korean wars,, except for special cases like Victoria Cross recipients I was told.

The losses to War are just so astronomical and have such impact on everyone and everything. life.

Why did they refer to WW1 as `The BIG ONE'? Becausse of the losses? The countries and numbers involved? All of the above?

Take Care.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Your first question:

"General QUESTION: for the men who were listed as MIA, presumed dead and `remembered' on memorials like Vimy, were some of the MIA's actually POWS who were just never seen again? Or were MIA's men whose bodies were known to `be there' but were unidentifiable?"

For those that have no known grave and are named on the various Great War Memorials, of one kind or another, the simply answer is, for the majority of them, they were never seen again and their remains were never found or recovered.

Your second question:

"Why did they refer to WW1 as `The BIG ONE'? Becausse of the losses? The countries and numbers involved? All of the above?"

Before the Second World War of 1939-1945, the War of 1914-1918 was referred to as 'The Great War'. Simply put, it was the first war on such a grand scale and area of operations and combatants involved, that the world had every seen, coupled with this, was the advances made in the development of new types of weapons and munitions used, examples: tanks, mortars, gases, the airplane has an offensive weapon, all of these, the likes of which the world had never seen before. As an example of the losses incured, Canada's population in 1914, was approx. eight millon people, of which a total of 619,636 served in the Canadian Forces during the conflict. Of these, 66,655 lost their lives and 172,950 were wounded. One in every ten Canadians that served during the Great War, never came home.

I hope the above mentioned, may have answered your questions.

In regards to the Battle of Courcelette, 15th September, 1916, I have attached a map of the area concerned, without the assault trace, so you can see what was what.

Cheers

Yes...your answers have helped a lot, on a few important levels.

Am very distracted right now tho, so will have to absorb your info later. My youngest daughter called from Calgary which is always to hear from her. She's worried about this current war too, as is every other person I know. My youngests father is American and he served Stateside, (Vietnam time? Something similar) but not overseas (almost blind in one eye)anyways...her Dad, some half-siblings, and tons of relatives from USA coast to coast are all there. He also tends to fly all over the world on gigs too tho am sure not right now.

Iraq. I think here of a Scorpion, trapped. Backed into a corner and trapped, it will sting itself to death rather than be `caught'... I worry big time about how all this rigid psychology is going to play out physically for everyone, people and world. This Iraq guy just seems too much of a berzerker to tangle openly with. He seems the type you have to come at from out of the blue. Theres no such thing as fight fair or following common rules of conduct with certain mind-sets. If he doesn't have empathy and compassion for his own people, and that his casualties are nothing to him because there are another million to take their place... I doubt that he will be humane with any enemy POWS. God, I really feel for those people right now, and their families. I think that all of those reasons are why so many people are so afraid and so against this war in particular(other than the obvious deaths and destructiveness and innocents being hurt etc)

I wish I could `fix it'.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Have you seen this, Book of Remembrance - First World War - Page 117:

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/books/ww1/ww1177.htm

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

The 'light bulb' finally went on and I remembered that there was a book published in 1995 regarding the history of the 27th (City of Winnipeg) Infantry Battalion, CEF, during The Great War:

From the Forks to Flanders Field, the story of the 27th City of Winnipeg Battalion 1914 to 1919, by Bruce Tascona, published in 1995

Sorry, can't remember who published it. :

Cheers

Hi Mark. Thanks. The authors name is ringing bells for me... Toscana (I think another book recommended to me about the Royal Winnipeg Rifles)

Gotta run, will talk later.

Carman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Found a few notes regarding the 27th (City of Winnipeg) Infantry Battalion, CEF, that you might be interested in. (Private Archibald James Viznaugh)

27th (City of Winnipeg) Battalion

The 27th was the first independent battalion to be raised in Manitoba in the First World War, it was not affiliated with any established regiment of the Militia. It's only identity was in it's number (27). It was one of the many nameless Canadian battalions raised to conform with the new numbering system introduced by the than Defence Minister, Sam Hughes, in 1914.

Since the 27th Battalion had no name or identity, it appeared on the Army List as the 27th Battalion CEF. With this in mind, it's first Commanding Officer, Lt-Col. J.R. Snider, asked the mayor and city council of Winnipeg to adopt his nameless battalion, which they did, with the battalion going overseas in the spring of 1915, with the name 27th City of Winnipeg Battalion. On it's cap badge, the 27th carried the crest of the City of Winnipeg.

Through the war years, the battalion established itself as an outstanding fighting unit , winning 19 Battle Honours and two Victoria Crosses. After disbandment, the City of Winnipeg Battalion eventually disappeared totally, as it's veterans passed on, though the names of many of it's Fallen appear on the Next of Kin Monument on the Legislative grounds and many who survived the war are catalogued in Brookside Cemetary. The Memory of the 27th and it's remarkable war record, are only now preserved in the Battle Honours that were awarded to the Battalion.

Also an image of their cap badge in attached.

Cheers

Wow. I'm impressed with the 27th Archie was the 24 year old, elder brother. The one `Remembered' on Vimy Memorial.

All this military history is really fascinating!

Gotta run...thanks as ever

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Found a bit more concerning the 1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles (Private William Viznaugh) assault on the Mouquet Farm position, on 15th September, 1916. This is from a book on the Canadian Expeditionary Force published in 1918.

"At 6:30 on the morning of the 15th the first move in the attack was made. The 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles (Lieutenant-Colonel Draper), on the right, rushed their first objective, the German front line, so swiftly that it was gained with few casualties. They jammed the enemy back up his communication trench some distance and established a block. Their gain was quickly consolidated and they set themselves to diggng a new communication trench back to our lines. At the same time the 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles (Lieutenant-Colonel Andross), onthe left, sprung their raid on Mouguet Farm. They gained entrance, after a brief resistance, and found the place full of German dead, the harvest of our barrage. Having hastily effected such damage as they could with the explosives at their disposal, they made their way back to their starting point, with one prisoner, having suffered only 25 casualties in the affair, which had lasted just under an hour."

It's not much, but it's something I guess. Also, the attached image, is the cap badge of the 1st C.M.R.

Also, from your earlier post regarding the name:'Bruce Tascona', he also wrote the book: 'The Little Black Devils, A History of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles', published in 1983.

Cheers

MARK: Good information! Thanks!! and I KNEW that name (Toscana)up up in connection with some book about the RWR's

It's really good to see the badges you post too. Those physical things make everything more real, don't they?

Now I have to check my other post replies



Take care!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Carman;

Have found some more information regarding the battle for Courcelette on 15 September 1916, where your Grandmother's two cousins were lost.

Part 1:

The below links concern the 27th Canadian Infantry Battalion, C.E.F. of which Private Archibald James Viznaugh was a part of. These pages are from the 27th Bn's War Diary for Sept 1916:

War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 1
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 2
Operations Order of 14 Sep 1916
Operations Order of 15 Sep 1916 - page 1
Operations Order of 15 Sep 1916 - page 2
Operations Order of 15 Sep 1916 - page 3
Operations Order of 15 Sep 1916 - page 4
After Action Report for 15 Sep 1916 - page 1
After Action Report for 15 Sep 1916 - page 2
Summary of Operations 7 to 15 Sep 1916

Thought you'd find these of interest.

Cheers

Part 2 to follow

[Mark W. Tonner]

Carman;

Part 2:

The below links concern the 1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles, C.E.F., of which Private William Viznaugh was a part of. These pages are from the 1st CMR's War Diary for Sept 1916:


War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 1
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 2
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 3
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 4
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 5

Cheers

Thanks Mark... no time to read through ... and I hope you can guess why. Will be in touch... somehow some place some day

Carman

[Jon Skagfeld]

Can't you read between the lines....she had to go pee!

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Can't you read between the lines....she had to go pee!

Hey SKAG ... look it this

[Jon Skagfeld]

What am I (trying) to look at?

What's the gig?

You guys in Nelson, BC, artsy fartsy as you are, fail to tickle my Conservative palate.Conservative

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
What am I (trying) to look at?

What's the gig?

You guys in Nelson, BC, artsy fartsy as you are, fail to tickle my Conservative palate.Conservative

Oh well... some conservative palates are meant to be tickles to lighten up a bit EEEEK BTW I ain't too thrilled with the overabundance of artsy fartsy metaphysical types. Their inner kids should be tarred and feathered EEEEEK

whassa matter Skag ... you don't LIKE me ?

[Jon Skagfeld]

Hey Kar...my adorable piece of Kitchy-Koo...it's not that I don't like you, it's just that I couldn't see what I thought you had posted previously.

Silly me... I should have put on my metaphysical shades in order to divine that which you wished to savour.

Meet you on Starship 7, Shablam idi Shablam ida

The compass will turn...

"In 1620, The Mayflower sailed from Plymouth westward, carring the Pilgrims in search of a new land."

In star date 27X,year, minus 33, location earth, 16 degrees, polar star west.

Stars in the sky
Shining so bright
Looking for light
On this Earth
On this Earth

Trivia: name the artist.

Later, dude.

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Hey Kar...my adorable piece of Kitchy-Koo...it's not that I don't like you, it's just that I couldn't see what I thought you had posted previously.

Silly me... I should have put on my metaphysical shades in order to divine that which you wished to savour.

Meet you on Starship 7, Shablam idi Shablam ida

The compass will turn...

"In 1620, The Mayflower sailed from Plymouth westward, carring the Pilgrims in search of a new land."

In star date 27X,year, minus 33, location earth, 16 degrees, polar star west.

Stars in the sky
Shining so bright
Looking for light
On this Earth
On this Earth

Trivia: name the artist.

Later, dude.

Say WHAT??? Adorable piece of Kitchy-Koo Kar? Oh gawd. You MEN.

BTW ... I'm not from the Left-Coast ... but from Left-Field ... But SO, my dear SKAG, are YOU I think???

OK... thats enough fun for me for one day ... have to run now.

ps ... I'm sorrry regards the mismatched matchmaking.

hugs K

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Carman;

Part 2:

The below links concern the 1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles, C.E.F., of which Private William Viznaugh was a part of. These pages are from the 1st CMR's War Diary for Sept 1916:


War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 1
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 2
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 3
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 4
War Diary entry for 15 Sep 1916 - page 5

Cheers

MARK ... I've suddenly become interested for another reason, other than my Granny's first cousins (Archie and William Viznaugh)

It appears as though my grandfather has on his headstone

CMR CEF

From what I'm getting, grandpa Private Joseph Smith (Eddie's dad) may have been fighting alongside granny's cousin Private William Viznaugh???

You know what slays me? I "get" and "understand" how I could "miss the history" because I left Manitoba area at age 11, then basically my family at early 14 ... went into a foster home, never to live at home again, and rare visits "home" or with family to "talk" ... but how come everyone else seems SO ignorant of family history? Sad ...

Ah well ... I'm currently trying to link my grandpa where he fit in in WW1 ... if you can help narrow my focus a little more Mark, I'd appreciate that Am I looking in the right direction regards Grandpa and William side by side, i wonder?

IF you are much too inundated with your own work and research stuff, not to worry alright

Meanwhile, I'm going to scan the above diaries see if I spot anything.

This whole digging into the family history is sure coming up with amazing "FAMILY SOLDIERS" stories. Gives me an incredible feeling of awe and pride in the men of my family. Amazing.

Karmen

I found this link about "for sale", and the contact info is actually WINNIPEG ... hmmmm ...

http://www.marway-militaria.com/cef_nominal_rolls.htm

My sleepless nite has proved productive through ARCHIVIANET which has added a LOT of new materials and new attestation papers since way last year I actually found my GRANDFATHER ... Rfmn Edward Smith's dad's attestation record for WW1;

Private Joseph Smith
Regimental # 1072219
C.M.R. C.E.F.

THEN I pulled up Grannies cousins, and their attestation records are there too...

William and Archie Viznaugh were brothers who were KIA/MIA the same day ... (Sept 16, 1915) Archie, the eldest is named on the Vimy Memorial ... I glanced through his record on Archivianet and it mentions that HE SERVED BEFORE... but I can't make out the initials/who with etc.

http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/ne...e.html&r=1&f=S

GEOFF ... I'm sorry ... I know that I've really turned this into my own personal family search, gone way off topic of my original post about 1944 executed POWS ... and have gone back into WW1 territory ... and so on. I hope you'll forgive me this off track wandering ...

My interest is more "whole-istic" than merely my own family stuff though, too ... it's about learning about events and things, people, that have shaped and set in motion our present ...etc ... but I know you all know the "benefits" in knowledge and awareness that comes with digging out the hidden roots ... when those roots are SO deep and wide ...

"I searched for a grain of sand in the dark,
and I found a beach in the daylight" sorta thing

I feel a lot of pride for these men of my family.
They've all been tucked out of mind, as far as I know, by relations "silence" of not passing on the knowledge and remembrance through oral or written tradition, and I feel incredibly sad about that, but I'm also glad I'm interested because my interest will revive these mens memories and stories ... my heart especialy belongs to Uncle Eddie tho Very special story.

Coffee time ...

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
It appears as though my grandfather has on his headstone

CMR CEF

From what I'm getting, grandpa Private Joseph Smith (Eddie's dad) may have been fighting alongside granny's cousin Private William Viznaugh???

Hi Karmen;

CMR CEF = Canadian Mounted Rifles, Canadian Expeditionary Force

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Archie, the eldest is named on the Vimy Memorial ... I glanced through his record on Archivianet and it mentions that HE SERVED BEFORE... but I can't make out the initials/who with etc.

Hi Karmen;

It looks like the 96th Regiment of the Militia. - I'll see what I can find on them.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Archie, the eldest is named on the Vimy Memorial ... I glanced through his record on Archivianet and it mentions that HE SERVED BEFORE... but I can't make out the initials/who with etc. [QUOTE]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Karmen;

It looks like the 96th Regiment of the Militia. - I'll see what I can find on them.

Cheers

Hi Karmen;

96th Regiment of the Militia = 96th Lake Superior Regiment, Port Arthur, Ontario - formed in 1905. Today, they are the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment.

Cheers