Carrier Ambulances

[DaveCox]

Hi Guys, the members of MLU have helped before , but this seems a bit tougher. I am looking for photos or drawings of the Universal Carrier converted to an ambulance for use in N.W Europe. can anyone help?

[Nigel Watson]

Hi Dave
KD rules!!! I'm into the ww2 desert thing!!

I have some photos of the ambulance carriers. The thing is that many were converted in the field and used as ambulances. The only official carrier ambulance had special stretcher rails (most likely borrowed from another application!) fixed over its hull.

Nigel

I also have a model of an ambulance carrier I built.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Dave;

Here is a picture of a Carrier Ambulance, part of an armoured unit, sorry, not NWE, but Italy, 1945.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Dave;

Here is a picture of a carrier of the 10th HLI, 15th Scottish Div, being employed as an ambulance by their RAP, Normandy, June 1944.

Cheers

[DaveCox]

Thanks guys,

Mark, your top picture is the only one I have been able to find myself. The accompanying text says that the body was extended to the rear to provide protection for the stretchers carried either side of the engine.
The book also says that the ambulance carrier was used to evacuate armour crewmen under fire.
What I really need is photos of the left side, rear and inside for a model. ( when I finish my 5A/T 4th Armoured diorama).

Thanks again for trying.

[Nigel Watson]

Hi Dave
Here's one, looks as if its a modified carrier rather than a special one. Hope this helps.



The WD No. on this is a wee bit of a mistery. If it is 17641 it should be a Valentine MkII, so it must be 17641? which would make it a Canadian made UC MkI. However the breakdown of the Contract doesn't show 17641? It jumps from 176404 to 176624. But hey there it is in the photograph so who needs any more proof than that!!

Nigel

[DaveCox]

Thanks Nigel, that helps me out a bit more - piece by piece the info. comes together!

[Nigel Watson]

Dave just a thought which you probably know of or do something equally effective. When I make canvas on models I use tissue paper, as in loo paper soft stuff, cut and glue it onto the frames etc. on the model and then paint it very carefully with enamel paint. What this does is shows the tissue weave but also when the paint dries it makes the whole canvas part go hard creating all the pull and folds as in real canvas on vehicles.

Just a thought.

Nigel

[luc désormeaux]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Dave;

Here is a picture of a carrier of the 10th HLI, 15th Scottish Div, being employed as an ambulance by their RAP, Normandy, June 1944.

Cheers

hi mark,
is-it possible to know the source of your picture??
thanks

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi luc;

Your Question: "is-it possible to know the source of your picture??"

My source: NORMANDIE ALBUM MEMORIAL 6 JUIN - 22 AOUT 1944, by Georges Bernage, Editions Heimdal. The picture itself is credited to the Imperial War Museum, London.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's a pic of an ambulance carrier, with white paint and red cross.

IIRC, this version had the rear plate removed.

[Luigi Manes]

Some other examples:

1) MK III (I think), employed as an ambulance. South of Caumont, 31 July 1944. Picture B 8307 Imperial War Museum, London.

2) MK I, unit and place unknown.

3) MK I of 2nd New Zealand Division, Italy, April 1945.

4) MK I of Italian co-belligerent Friuli Combat Group. Castel San Pietro, Italy, April 1945. I think on this carrier the rear plate was removed.

5) Another MK I improvised ambulance of Italian Friuli Combat Group, Italy, early spring 1945. Picture from the book "Il Gruppo di Combattimento Friuli nella Guerra di Liberazione" - Istituto Italiano d'arti grafiche, Bergamo 1945.

Luigi

[Robert Bergeron]

Amazing pictures my friends Hanno and Luigi.

Picture Nbr 1 : I see a German medic attending what I see as three wounded / prisoners, two on stretchers and one other siting sideways that is a walking wounded but certainly out of action by the looks of it . The third's head can be seen facing sideways in the back wearing glasses. Driver and medic up front are Commonwealth members. The medic up front has his hand on the one of the guy's head. Don't worry boy we will get you out to a doctor ...

Great demonstration of Carriers being put to good use evacuating the wounded from both sides from the battlefield .

Awesome.

[derk derin]

I have always been interested in ambulances and heard about modified Universal carriers the 5th Canadian Division made into ambulances but never saw any references to them until I bought the Canadian Army Newsreels DVD set put out by the War Amps and there it was in black & white, 2 of the Modified Carrier ambulances rolling past the reviewing stand! I paused the TV and took pictures of them. Does anybody have any more information on these type of carriers? If you have the Canadian Army Newsreels set then on Disc 5, Issue 74, 5th Division Finale you will see them roll past. I would love to convert my carrier into this configuration but unfortunately I am cursed with Original armor on my carrier and cannot get myself to break out the cutting torches and do the dirty deed! One thing that is noticeable is the side armor runs all the way to the edge of the back deck. Rob Love found a couple of images on the internet for me of a model carrier ambulance in this configuration and shows that the cut out back armor was used to extend the side armor for more protection for the casualty. I wonder if the modeler had official photo's or documents to go by or just guessed at the configuration? Would love to learn more about the carrier ambulance modifications. Anybody?
Regards,Derk

[Colin Alford]

This image provides some detail of the modifications.

Unfortunately I do not know when or where this image was taken. I photographed it yesterday at the Base Borden Military Museum and Archives.

[derk derin]

Great photo's Colin. Thank you very much for taking them and posting. Now I really want to convert my carrier!
Regards,Derk

[Rob Beale]

The 2nd photo in the group of 4 pics in Luigi's post is an ambulance carrier of A Squadron, 19 Armd Regiment, 4 Armd Brigade of 2 NZ Division in Italy.
The tattered canopy looks like a C15A canopy

The 3rd photo is from 22 Motor Battalion of 4 Armd Brigade, 2 NZ Div.
Its canopy looks like a tarp over the ridge pole of a tent.

Hanno's photo is a snow cammo'd carrier of Regt HQ of 4 Armd Bde 2 NZ Div.
It's canopy looks like a C15A canopy without windows, with the front flap pulled over a front bow.
This is likely the vehicle copied by Resicast for their model.

There is a photo in one of Nigel's "Universal Carrier" series that shows the rear of a NZ Div carrier with the radio battery box in place and a white jerrycan in the POL holder.
Its canopy is much longer and overhangs the rear tool plate, and could be off a Loyd.

The stretcher rails are visible, and look to me to be an angle iron running each side to support the stretcher feet and allow them to be pushed inside. The tail end is formed as a channel I think, with provision for a locking pin to keep the rear stretcher feet in place.

The canopy (tilt) varies between carriers with some CMP C15A style (with or without the windows), and the front flap pulled forward over a horizontal hood bow. Others look to be Loyd canopies, or tarps.

The extension of the rear plate has a gap below it, which leads me to believe it is the cut out section of the rear plate welded on to each side plate. The rear corner angle iron is either removed or cut vertically at the outer edges of the rear plate. The tee section across the rear needs to remain to support the track guards so the plate would be cut across its upper edge.

Interesting that for many years the only photos of the conversion were of the 4 Armd Bde of 2NZ Div in Italy. All are UC Mk I* from the headlights.

(18, 19 and 20 Armd Regts were converted from 18, 19 and 20th Infantry Battalions after the debacles of Ruweisat Ridge and Bel Hammed when promised armoured support did not arrive. They were reinforced in mid 1942 by troops of the NZ Armd Bde which was raised in NZ on Valentines and Stuart Hybrids - only one Squadron remained to serve with Valentine V and III CS on Green Island in the Solomons in Feb 1944)

From the variations noted I believe, IMHO, they were a field modification, likely done in RNZEME workshops in Italy.

The most recent pic above shows a much tidier conversion with rounded corners on the remnant of the rear plate, and a neat weld of the rear plate extension, with removal of the radio battery box and POL holder.
Perhaps these were Base workshops or factory conversions?
This and the white ones in the parade lack canopies too.

My sources are Jeff Plowmans Kiwi Armour series, and Armor Camo & Markings volumes, and emails from Jeff.

My interest in these is from a late friend who was evacuated wounded in one in Italy

Rob

[Colin Alford]

I was scrolling through the Universal/Bren Carrier Facebook page and noticed the images of a recent barn-find acquisition by Chad Marshall.

The shape of the cuts on the rear armour reminded me of the ambulance conversion shown in this thread.

As I am not a Facebook user, I was not able to view all of the comments that were made regarding this carrier, but I thought it might be prudent to bring this thread up to the top for possible discussion.

The attached images are from Chad’s post on the facebook page.

[Alan McGuinness]

Some more IWM pictures - mostly North Africa

[Alan McGuinness]

More IWM photos from North Africa

[Alan McGuinness]

Last lot, again from North Africa

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more photos found





This one was recently restored. Great effort though I don’t think the Airborne units had ambulances.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Great effort though I don’t think the Airborne units had ambulances.

A black arm-of-service sign with a white serial '77' was for an Airlanding Field Ambulance. There was one in each Airborne Division.

The 1st Airborne Division had the 181st Airlanding Field Ambulance.

The 6th Airborne Division had the 195th Airlanding Field Ambulance.

(The British Soldier Vol 2 by Jean Bouchery)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

A black arm-of-service sign with a white serial '77' was for an Airlanding Field Ambulance. There was one in each Airborne Division.

The 1st Airborne Division had the 181st Airlanding Field Ambulance.

The 6th Airborne Division had the 195th Airlanding Field Ambulance.

(The British Soldier Vol 2 by Jean Bouchery)

But did they have Carrier Ambulances? The Airbornes travel light…

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

But did they have Carrier Ambulances? The Airbornes travel light…

I can't say specifically, it's not really my field of study, but airlanding meant delivered by glider and a carrier was glider deliverable.

I do know that every time a British Airborne Division deployed by parachute and glider in Northwest Europe (Normandy, Arnhem and the Rhine) they had a ground borne logistical tail which would meet up with them for the sustained operations which inevitably followed. Maybe the carrier ambulances were with that part?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

I can't say specifically, it's not really my field of study, but airlanding meant delivered by glider and a carrier was glider deliverable.

I do know that every time a British Airborne Division deployed by parachute and glider in Northwest Europe (Normandy, Arnhem and the Rhine) they had a ground borne logistical tail which would meet up with them for the sustained operations which inevitably followed. Maybe the carrier ambulances were with that part?

I am no expert either, but it seems unlikely to me based on what I have read. Airborne units were not meant to sustain operations for a very long time, they are meant to be dropped on objectives behind enemy lines, seize and hold them until heavier armed troops take over and continue.

Until someone shows proof I will take this with a grain of salt. I am not demeaning on the carrier and its owner as I understand very serious money was spent on this project and it really looks the part - except for the markings.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

...

I do know that every time a British Airborne Division deployed by parachute and glider in Northwest Europe (Normandy, Arnhem and the Rhine) they had a ground borne logistical tail which would meet up with them for the sustained operations which inevitably followed. Maybe the carrier ambulances were with that part?

To corroborate the terminology, when the Rhodesian Fire Force jumped from their limited number of serviceable DC-3s, the Commando Sergeant Major was on the road with empty troop carrying vehicles, empty cargo trucks, water, rations and other supplies to meet the ground force. The parachutes were recovered as part of the after contact drills, and someone had to deliver them to the packing sheds. By the 1970s helicopter casualty evacuation was a well-practised drill, so they would not necessarily have had an ambulance in the land tail. However, there were likely medics with the Sergeant Major to treat non-critical injuries. For big cross border raids, the medical system saddled up with a mobile field hospital to treat immediate and life threatening wounded, but those raids didn't happen often.