Is there a shortage of 216 Engines?

gazzaw · #1 30-03-12, 19:14

Hi All,

We have been trying to get a replacement 216 (or 235 if it easily fits the 216 bell housing etc) engine for our 216 C60L wrecker but for past 2 years it has proved difficult to find one.

Our poor wrecker has been off the road for all this time and we are running out of time to get mobile again. alternative is to break it and sell for spares or scrap, but we are a charity who use our vehicles to raise money for Armed services charities.

SOS and Mayday anyone with practical advice or help. We are based in UK

Gary

Phil Waterman · #2 31-03-12, 01:25

Hi Gary

They're not scarce in the US but I'm afraid the shipping cost and a seller who is willing to pack and deal with customs shipping is the problem. The other problem is that without a great deal of luck any 216 found in the states will be in need of a rebuild which is running around $3000 that's what it cost to overhaul the engine of my HUP. Another part of the problem is buying and engine from an unknown source overseas can end with a very expensive boat anchor.

I know this doesn't really help but wanted to see if anything can be done to help.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #3 31-03-12, 04:36

...... any other GM six of that period...... 235 or 261 cu.in. as they will bolt right up to the original bell housing.

They are not falling out of trees anymore even here in North America but with some looking a running engine can be found for $500. or 600.00

too bad you are so far away as they don't fit in envelopes too easily !!!!

Good luck

Bob

cletrac (RIP) · #4 31-03-12, 05:54

Out here in the Canadian prairies I could gather up several rebuildable 216s on any given day. Like others said, shipping would kill you though.

Hanno Spoelstra · #5 31-03-12, 13:54

Gary,

We have quite a number of UK-based CMP collectors, one of them should be able to give you some leads?

Have you placed a wanted ad on milweb, the 2 UK HMV magazines and various club magazines and websites?

One turned up the other day here in Holland, it came out of a post-war Chevy truck which was being dismantled by hot-rodders:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's a nice one to test your Chevy engine ID skills: seller claims it is a 216. Engine sits in what remains of a 1949 Chevrolet truck, which is in the process of being dismantled.
PS: here's the link to the advert for the Dutchmen who are looking for a Chevrolet engine - http://link.marktplaats.nl/525635919
Someone please go save this and drop it in a CMP!

BTW, what is wrong with your engine? I know Jaap Rietveld in Belgium had quite some spares for the Chevy 216, incl. complete cylinder heads.

Re-engining with the GMC 270 is another option, that's been done before, and those engines should be easier to source than the 216 in the UK.

HTH,
Hanno

Tony Smith · #6 01-04-12, 16:14

And another commonly-swapped engine is the Bedford 214ci Six (28hp sound right?), which should be readily sourced in the UK.

Richard Farrant · #7 01-04-12, 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

And another commonly-swapped engine is the Bedford 214ci Six (28hp sound right?), which should be readily sourced in the UK.

I was afraid to mention that option Tony, in case the purists attacked me !

The 28hp Bedford engine is actually a better engine than the Chev as it has full pressure oiling to the big ends, bhp is about 72, but if you fit a late build 214 from 60/70's era, they are 100bhp for same capacity.

By the way, great to meet up with you recently

regards, Richard

gazzaw · #8 01-04-12, 22:04

Thanks for replies Guys,

Yes been searching for some time now and 1 we bought (unseen but promised it was ok) from South of England had a 14 inch crack along the casing and another (a 235) we went down to Staffordshire to collect although looked same had wrong hole pattern in crankshaft for flywheel and the castings all different for bellhousing attachment etc (this one will be resold for hot rodders if possible)

Am toying with fully stripping original (it was rebuilt in Holland in 50s with a VEGE plate on it) but it is leaking coolant into exhaust ports/manifold/ into exhaust. Suspect internal crack or leak in a place that can't be got at. It was running fine but one of our regular drivers roasted the enging and we had head checked, refurbed and ceramic lined etc but after putting it all togther it was still found to be leaking - hence need for another engine - can't see from pistons if standard or oversized so might need to get them scoped for actual sizes then look for a block etc.

Will look at putting ads into milweb and mags, had emailed Dirk on many occasions to but never got a reply.

Gary

Mike K · #9 02-04-12, 10:24

I used to correspond ( by snail mail , before this internet came along ) with a Chevy C8 restorer who lived up near Lancaster in the NE of England . From what he told me , Chev 216 engines and parts are not exactly common in the UK . I sent him a few items but he was always asking for any 216 parts , ancillaries like carbies, water pumps etc. He got a set of the UPTONS of Corowa pistons too . Remember the crates of them they had . MIKE

Bob Carriere · #10 03-04-12, 04:11

Hi Gary

Sorry you got burned getting the wrong engine size/model. ALL 235 and 261 6 cyl. GM engines should bolt right up to the 216 bellhousing... you might have a later 1960 era 230 or 250 6 cyl..... totally a different casting.

If the crankshaft was designed for an automatic transmission it may not be drilled for a typical flywheel but can be drilled by a machine shop while the engine is getting rebuilt....also will need a pilot bearing/bushing insert in the rear of the crank to support the tranny input shaft.

Consider ahving your old block properly magnaflux .... it should tell you where the leak is and whether it can be pinned and welded.

Be persistant with Dirk .... is regular business keeps him very busy .... he might be able to import a good Canadian block for you in his occasional container shipment from Canada.

Maybe we should consider filling up a sea container full of GM 216/235/261 and see if we can make some money.....hahaha

Don't give up yet.... half the fun is in the chase !!!!!

Bob

gazzaw · #11 04-04-12, 19:47

Thanks Bob (and others)

Yes one will turn up, am chasing one at moment but promised photos of it still to materialise- at least it is in UK but on south coast.

Really want to get the wrecker on road again as it's been too long (2 years now) and fear that rest of components will deteriorate with non use etc. will keep you posted

Gary

Bob Carriere · #12 05-04-12, 04:00

..... get the serial numbers and casting numbers..... post them on the web and search the serial numbers both on the block and on the head.....

Good luck

Bob

Max Hedges · #13 05-04-12, 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

I was afraid to mention that option Tony, in case the purists attacked me !

The 28hp Bedford engine is actually a better engine than the Chev as it has full pressure oiling to the big ends, bhp is about 72, but if you fit a late build 214 from 60/70's era, they are 100bhp for same capacity.

By the way, great to meet up with you recently

regards, Richard

Richard we have a bedford engine fitted to a chev 4x2 and she sure runs along nicely
Max

Richard Farrant · #14 05-04-12, 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Hedges

Richard we have a bedford engine fitted to a chev 4x2 and she sure runs along nicely
Max

Hi Max,

I have to admit to be biased towards Bedfords !

How did the trip after Corowa go?

regards, Richard

Pete Ashby · #15 05-04-12, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Max,

I have to admit to be biased towards Bedfords !

How did the trip after Corowa go?

regards, Richard

Tut Tut Mr Farrant

US6 · #16 05-04-12, 11:13

Out of left field, but I'm pretty sure an early Toyota Land Cruiser engine will bolt straight up as well. Of course, that might be harder to find in the UK than a Chev.

Keith Webb · #17 05-04-12, 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by US6

Out of left field, but I'm pretty sure an early Toyota Land Cruiser engine will bolt straight up as well. Of course, that might be harder to find in the UK than a Chev.

I had a C60S with that engine, it was a nice fit and power to weight ratio. The carby was a bit large to fit inside the engine cover. It came to me with that engine fitted and I believe there were a couple of holes which needed to be drilled somewhere to make it fit.

Richard Farrant · #18 05-04-12, 19:17

At least a Bedford engine is a GM product....... but a Toyota

Max Hedges · #19 05-04-12, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Max,

I have to admit to be biased towards Bedfords !

How did the trip after Corowa go?

regards, Richard

Richard the trip went well we all had a really good time, came across some challenges on the Humffray River Track , we had to clear the track of fallen trees and cross some fairly deep river crossings, the water wouldn't have been very far off the distributor in the ford blitz which ws a little bit of a worry. One track was too washed out so we had to turn around and try another way.

Max

Richard Farrant · #20 05-04-12, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Hedges

Richard the trip went well we all had a really good time, came across some challenges on the Humffray River Track , we had to clear the track of fallen trees and cross some fairly deep river crossings, the water wouldn't have been very far off the distributor in the ford blitz which ws a little bit of a worry. One track was too washed out so we had to turn around and try another way.

Max

hi Max,

Sounds like an interesting trip, hope all the vehicles survived without any dramas.

gazzaw · #21 07-04-12, 00:10

Will get the casting numbers this weekend and search for compatibles. Reason we never chased bedfords was we thought it wouldn't bolt in there and we would need to change too much to get it to work, clutch, eng mountings etc at least it is GM product.

Gary

gazzaw · #22 09-04-12, 15:36

some photos of original engine casting numbers, apologies for some poor blurred images.

Casting numbers etc read GM 839253 A or 4-20-3 023
Engine Number PR 3885165 and the V.E.G.E. plate No 61751

Phil Waterman · #23 09-04-12, 16:00

Hi Gary

Could you tell us again what you have tried to determine where the water leak is? The reason I ask is that there are not a whole lot of places to have an internal leak. May be some one will have a bright idea about a simple check and hopefully a fix.

Short of disassembling I have done air pressure test check on blocks and heads before taking them to the machine shop to be magnifluxed. In this way found the obviously junk blocks.

Besides it would be a shame to find a new block only to discover it was the head that was the culprit.

Now as to your block casting number 839253 it doesn't show up in any of my casting number source list all US lists, no surprise, now who in our little group has found the online list of Canadian GM casting numbers?

Cheers Phil

gazzaw · #24 09-04-12, 18:13

Hi Phil

we are thinking it is between water jacket and into exhaust ports, have had the head tested and ceramic lined as well as skimmed but still leaks after rebuild so thinking it must be in block somewhere so perhaps a pressure or vacuum test next. doesn't seem to be much else wrong with it as everything else was running fine except leak into exhaust. limited workshop and no specialist equipment but cannot afford to keep rebuilding and installing into vehicle only to find same fault etc.

Gary

Phil Waterman · #25 09-04-12, 23:12

Hi Gary

If the water leak is to the exhaust I'm just about convinced that your problem has to be in the head not the block. Heads are easier to find a year ago I know a source that had 25 NOS heads that would fit your engine but you would have to replace the pistons as the heads are the US version designed for flat top pistons not the domed pistons.

Ok the rest of you guys who know 216s chime in with the best way to confirm.

Cheers Phil

gazzaw · #26 10-04-12, 00:30

Thanks Phil

The pistons on this engine are flat headed so might it be US? Also photo of head and the head gasket where it shows damage in No 2 cylinder where water had originally been leaking from exhaust port. After refurb on head and refitting it was still leaking through port making us think it is block now.

Gary

Richard Farrant · #27 10-04-12, 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by gazzaw

Thanks Phil

The pistons on this engine are flat headed so might it be US? Also photo of head and the head gasket where it shows damage in No 2 cylinder where water had originally been leaking from exhaust port. After refurb on head and refitting it was still leaking through port making us think it is block now.

Gary

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Hi Gary,

Seeing the gasket, and how you say the head has been faced, then if the head is still true, then i would suspect the block top face is a possible cause, looks like it may need facing, not unknown for this to happen.

gazzaw · #28 10-04-12, 14:00

Thanks Richard

Can only think it took a real roasting and will look at refacing face on block as well.

Gary

gazzaw · #29 12-04-12, 18:18

Phil

Any more info re the NOS heads as it might be prudent to get one and keep the old refurbed one as spare?

Below is photos of one of the engines we bought (from a distance on interweb) which was unsuitable - it has the fluid flywheel and rear mounting and we were prepared to redrill crankshaft but mounting casting all wrong. It was sold as a 235 but must be a different type as it is all wrong, better to repost it on Fleabay and sell it on I think. Info we got was the castings were right to swap over from the 216 to a 235 but now know different.

Phil Waterman · #30 12-04-12, 23:04

Hi Gary

Here is where I got my cylinder head from:

http://www.obschevy.com/ home page

http://www.obschevy.com/pages/Catalogs.html Catalog page

Then search "head" part number on the second page you will find

1941-1953 CYLINDER HEAD w/ 216 & w/ 10 mm Plugs 839049 375.00 Each

Hope this helps.

When you say that the flywheel on the 235 is wrong bolt pattern what do you mean. When I set up my 235 to 216 flywheel what was wrong was the diameter of the crank shaft to flywheel bolts 216 being slightly smaller, is this the problem you are hitting or is it a completely different bolt pattern?

Cheers Phil