CWM visit

[chris vickery]

I was in Ottawa the other day for a tour of our sons new school for the next 3 years and while we were there, I thought we should have a look around the Canadian War Museum.
What dawned on me was kind of funny; as we we going through the displays, I found myself saying to my wife " I had/have one of those or remember when I owned one like that?" Specifically what really got to me was the number of military vehicles I have owned as I walked past a 15cwt GS, halftrack, wire 5, welding truck, HUP, UCs, jeeps etc etc...
Not to mention a plethora of military kit and other gear.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Two weeks ago, my boss called his staff for a professional development visit to the War Museum. The New Brunswick display was a nice compact cross section of Canadian military history from all eras.

The vehicle dsplay was a comedy show. Of the five of us, everyone had a story about one vehicle or the other, a gun, a truck or display. One fellow had been a troop commander with both the M113 Engineer SEV and the APC. I had stories about how the Churchill was built compared to the M24 Chaffee. The boss compared the Cougar wirecutters to those on the Kiowa helo. He was amused to learn that I had M38A1 jeeps, and I noticed the 106RCL M38A1 has the wrong spare tire ... 'Jason, are you out there? I can help.' Lots of little connections to the displays.

[chris vickery]

Terry, what got me most on the veh displays was how incorrect many of them are; I was also appalled at the condition of many vehicles. It seems to me that us collectors are far better versed and take much more pride and care of our stuff.
How about the Pzkfw 2 that has MB marker lights?
I am sure Barry Churchers Armoured truck looks much better than the CMW example as well. I can point to much better examples for the most part that are in private hands.
I understand that funding for museums is subject to approvals, cutbacks etc but many people that are interested in these items look to the "experts" as they are the ones supposed to be in the "know"...

[Bob Phillips]

Sorry guys but I just can't pass by without comment, In spite of the many minor criticisms we could all make about the CWM or other museums- they deserve credit for the most part - as places who aquire and hold on the vehicles the rest of have owned and flipped. When I first approached the CWM to advise them about the treasures being disposed of in Toronto ( Levy Auto Parts- 25 yrs ago) I was told by the then curator " we have no money and I have no time for this" When Jim Whittham took over things changed- they have an impressive vehicle collection and an interest in presenting it to the public. Are there problems with govt run museums - of course, but I would limit my public criticism of the CWM because overall their accomplishments far outweigh the shortcomings.We have some other museums ( military bases etc) that have impressive collections and might benefit from some volunteers efforts on their behalf. The impressive collection at Base Borden comes to mind.

[Robin Craig]

Ooooo, I'm going to pull up a sandbag and listen and watch this one. This could get very interesting.

Some very interesting comments


R

[chris vickery]

My point is that I know of Privately funded museums and collections which take more care and consideration in their collections- without government assistance, without volunteers.
Granted the CWM does indeed do what they can but even a museum "volunteer" agreed with me when I pointed out the incorrect lights on the Pzkfw 2. His response "take it up with management as I have before, good luck"... So it seems that within the organization there are those who know whats right, wrong etc but fighting a bureacracy which does not care.
When I first got into collecting mvs, I though that the CWM was the be all , end all of preservation; until I got educated.
Would some of our foreign members chime in here? Are your museums the same/better/worse? I am thinking the Tank Museum at Bovington/Jacques Littlefield Collection, Wheatcroft Collection etc?
It looks to me that I could have thrown my old junker M38A1 into the collection and call it a "museum piece".
Maybe I am too much a purist but I know it "bugs" me when something is not correct for one of my projects.

[Mike Cecil]

Ahhh, yes, this could be a VERY interesting thread! But I too, cannot pass up on the opportunity to contribute.....

As someone from another Commonwealth country who has been on both sides of the fence (private collector/restorer and govt museum curator), there are a LOT more issues to consider in the museum sphere than with one's own items. In simple terms, it is not the look of the item that is the deciding factor in considering working on a item (be that to acquire, to restore, to simply conserve as is, etc etc), but a myriad of intersection considerations, many of which often conflict. Did the PzKw2 arrive at CWM with the incorrect light? Who/what/when/where were they acquired/put on, etc etc. It's not only the battle history of an object that is important, but at the end of the day, the curatorial staff and conservation staff make informed and balanced judgements based on their experience and recommendations to management about how management's goals for the museum collection (ie how this items fits with the overall policy) can be achieved with a certain item. Again, this can range from 'conserve it as is', to full restoration to running standard. The question is never as simplistic as 'its got the the wrong lights...'.

On the other side of the coin, as a visitor to CWM many years ago, I have to say I was a little taken aback with the many minor factual technical errors in the displays, but every museum suffers from that to a greater or lesser degree: the AWM certainly is guilty of that, too. It's how they react and respond when informed (politely) that counts.

Mike C

(retired Head of Military Heraldry and Technology, Australian War Memorial, Canberra)

[rob love]

Easy to pass judgment when we own and restore maybe one or two vehicles at a time, to a maximum of maybe 5. Try it with 50 vehicles or more and see how you are able to keep up.

I visited the CWM a few times on my way overseas the last couple years. I enjoyed the equipments, and was glad to see them displayed, rather than looking for faults.

Here in Shilo, a long running faux-pas was the painting of the wheel nuts on some of the CMPs. Someone did a restoration of a signals van many years ago and painted the wheel nuts red and the rim nuts white. The mistake was carried on through a few more restorations, including the 1940 Ford pilot truck. Seemed like every tour the club would make to the museum, this flaw was picked up. And yet we were looking at a very decent sized collection of Canadian vehicles.

Needless to say, I had a volunteer go around the collection painting rim nuts red the other day. When he comes in again he will be painting wheel nuts white on those vehicles that had them in red. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Bob Phillips]

Just a thought about private collections- the first private collection that I really got familiar with was Bill Greggs collection. He was the first, to proceed on a systematic and well funded effort to preserve Canadian vehicle history. There were probably lots of things wrong with his restored vehicles - but that hardly matters - he probably did more as an individual for promoting an interest in this area than anyone else. Many years ago Brian Asbury and I were visting an MV meet in California, and a fellow came up to look at some #19 set parts we had. He invited us to stop by and see his few vehicles on out way back up to San F. Little did we know when we pulled up to the gates of the estate overlooking the Bay it was to be our introduction to Jacques Littlefield. He had only a few armoured vehicles but it was his passion. He showed us many other things he enjoyed( model railroads, a huge custom built pipe organ etc) We visited for a few hours and he toured us around his estate- a truly nice guy with an interest we all shared. The difference of course is when you combine the passion and the financial means to persue it..details count and it shows in the final result.

[chris vickery]

It appears, that I have opened the proverbial Pandora's Box on this issue, and it seems, I do not have any allies...
At any rate, as an example, I would not go on eBay and try to sell a War of 1812 tunic and call it "original" if I went and sewed on a few modern buttons- collectors would hang me for misrepresentation, fraud etc. I look towards my passion of MV restorations in the same light I guess and I hold higher authority to a much more rigid standard.
Maybe I am an undercover member of the "Jeep Police"?

[jason meade]

Yep Terry I am Here,...just lurking around. I think I will pull up beside Robin and see who like to hear there own voice...lol
Terry if your talking about the m-38a1 with the 106RR on it, its now gone into storage,We are still renovating the the museum with new displays yet to be put togeather.
I finally did get that M-109A4, as you can see in the photo.

As for me opening my mouth on here about vech collections its not worth it, I have 70 plus in running condition with a 30,000.00 budget per year, so very little can be done, and volunteers really are just a joke, dont get me wrong there are alot of great guys out there willing to help out, but even more who just want a spare part for there own collection.

As you can see i have almost blown my budget for this year, The old days of getting Maintance to do the work are long over, If you want to play you got to pay.
However some will say why bother having them if ya cant look after them, will my answer is simple,If i dont get it, You all will never see it.

[easo]

G'day all, I put a bit of my time here at the Puckapunyal Tank Museum and for us a restoration of even a cosmetic standard takes a few years. They do get a lot of people who criticise the state or layout of some vehicles or displays, however maintaining a Museum is not high on Defences budget. At the end of the day we solider on and continue to maintain items, currently our Light Horse Rail Carriage is getting all of the attention.

I would like to visit the CWM one day. Any chance of some piccys for us who have never been???

My 2 cents, Easo

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

Very interesting thread and some great comments. I thought that I would add my bit. I heard on the radio this morning after visiting my mate Salesman Bob, that the Federal Government have just announced they are giving $21 Million Dollars to the Canberra War Museum to upgrade their WW1 display. Sorry guys nothing for vehicles.

Cheers

Tony

[Ed Storey]

Chris, I certainly agree with your point that even when in a museum you have to be cautious of the accuracy of the material. I know that there is the common perception that what is presented in a museum is 100% accurate but unfortunately this is not the case as errors do crop up. The challenge is getting these errrors corrected.

With respect to your comment about the C15AA in the CWM collection, I agree that there are probably better C15TA restorations in public hands, but the C15AA on display is the only one of its kind and came from the John Marchant collection in England.

[Robin Craig]

Chris,

from the vantage point of my sandbag I think peoples comments have been very reasonable and that you should not take any offence ( I didnt think you had), this is a forum and we are kicking a subject around out in the open for all of us to comment on just the way the forum was intended to be used.

Kind of like "due process"

R

[chris vickery]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Chris, I certainly agree with your point that even when in a museum you have to be cautious of the accuracy of the material. I know that there is the common perception that what is presented in a museum is 100% accurate but unfortunately this is not the case as errors do crop up. The challenge is getting these errrors corrected.

Ed, you have summed up exactly my point, maybe a little more eloquently than myself.

Robin, no offense taken, of course, I appreciate a good debate.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi 'Little Jo'

Yes, the $21M for the WW1 displays will go a long way. The project has been underway for two years, with considerable planning already achieved. I think the $$ are to cover not only the displays, but some of the commemorations as well: the period 2014 to 2018 is going to be a busy one for the Australain War Memorial (so what's new? The soon to retire Director always had something happening) as the various centennials roll around.

The AWM has a reasonable WW1 vehicle collection, both horse drawn and mechanized, that has already seen many $$ spent on it.

As for the CWM, I seem to remember Jim W telling me that the lower floor of the new building was really a 'display-storage' area, with little work or presentation of the exhibits. So I gather they are presented 'warts and all', so to speak.

One of the most memorable exhibits I remember was a StugIII, blown to hell and unrestored (but conserved, no doubt). Excellent exhibit!

Mike C

[chris vickery]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

As for the CWM, I seem to remember Jim W telling me that the lower floor of the new building was really a 'display-storage' area, with little work or presentation of the exhibits. So I gather they are presented 'warts and all', so to speak.
Mike C

Mike, that pretty much sums up what I am talking about....

[Bob Carriere]

The CWM is not on the priority list for government spending.....a lot of us would not have the patience to put up with the frustration that Jason has to endure. He and others in the Museum are doing the best they can with the little they have.

I don't always agree with what or how things have been displayed....and I have strong feeling about what they did to the Churchill.... but having said that.... how many of you remember the glorious days of the small Annex on Sussex drive..... for decades that is all Canada had to show about our valiant contribution to the war..... hulks of tanks were set on fire by kids who crawled in the inside...... the miniature japanese submarine that used to be stored in old stone structures (circa 1955)off Wellingtons street and where St Redempteur streets used to cross...... the roof collapsed and the upper hull dinged by the heavy roofing beams......that was the neighbourhood I grew up in

What we have is a tremendous improvement...... perfect no....but at least they are saving some equipment. To us self appointed experts there is always something that is not correct...... the color shade is wrong or the wrong period taillights were installed...... to 90% of the visitors it is awsome.
Who amongst us can swear to the accuray of what is displayed about the Great War... over the years details get lost in the shuffle of time..... what they depict is still a gruesome representation of what war was like.....

To today's generation of rice burners a big flat nosed CMP is just a brute. We are a dying breed that can actually talk about repairing them and still enjoy the primitive driving conditions

I drove my rolling chassis this weekend.....first time since New Years weekend snow outing....... it was invigorating !!!!!!

Bob

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Hi 'Little Jo'

Yes, the $21M for the WW1 displays will go a long way. The project has been underway for two years, with considerable planning already achieved. I think the $$ are to cover not only the displays, but some of the commemorations as well: the period 2014 to 2018 is going to be a busy one for the Australain War Memorial (so what's new? The soon to retire Director always had something happening) as the various centennials roll around.

The AWM has a reasonable WW1 vehicle collection, both horse drawn and mechanized, that has already seen many $$ spent on it.

As for the CWM, I seem to remember Jim W telling me that the lower floor of the new building was really a 'display-storage' area, with little work or presentation of the exhibits. So I gather they are presented 'warts and all', so to speak.

One of the most memorable exhibits I remember was a StugIII, blown to hell and unrestored (but conserved, no doubt). Excellent exhibit!

Mike C

Hi Mike

You are right. It has been years since I last visited the CWA, the last time was for the Internment of the Unknown Soldier. I must make an effort to re visit again. The CWA has always been a fabulous place to visit and well worth the long drive from Adelaide. I must confess I made a mistake when I quoted the figure of $21 Million it was actually $27 Million, good injection of funds.

Cheers

Tony

[Dennis Gelean (RIP)]

The old Vimy House where big stuff was stored/displayed had Veterans as docents, one fine gentleman Was Capt. James Bond ret. (the real one).Gas warfare expert
the other old building had a a German air raid siren as named by the donor. My identical one is marked inside made by British boat works. who knows maybe they bought some from Britain? Think we have problems, the Canterbury NZ Museum closed due to Earthquake risk www.stuff.nz
How many beautiful collections are dismantled because we get old,sick or die
that is why we need young people introduced into our hobby

[Ed Storey]

Bob, I agree that 90% of the people who visit a museum do not recognize any errors and for the most part enjoy their visit. But what you have forgotten is that there is a difference between museums and private collections. A private collector can do whatever they want with their stuff, if the lights are not correct or the colour shade is off the only person they have to satisfy is themselves.

Museums are different, there is perception that what is presented in a museum and what is on display in a museum is 100% correct, much like a text book. We all know that this is unachievable as we are all human and make errors, but this 100% is what a museum should strive for. To sit back and say that well 90% of the people who visit will not know the difference so therefore why worry is wrong. That attitude can apply to an amusement park but not an institution that is preserving national history.

To say that "Who amongst us can swear to the accuray of what is displayed about the Great War... over the years details get lost in the shuffle of time....." is a cop out. Yes, the details may well be lost, but that premise should not be used as an excuse not to research and search out the answers.

Stiving for improvement is the key, not sitting back and finding excuses to stick with the statis quo.

[Bruce MacMillan]

One factor that often gets ignored is the history of an item. Perhaps a vehicle had a "field modification" by a few men in a unit in 1945. Decades later someone says that wasn't the way they came from the factory and removes the mod effectively removing some of its provenance.

There are many instances of "never say never" so care should be taken when restoring an item.

I feel museums should conserve and educate. Keep an item in the original state and discover as much about it's history as possible. If a vehicle came right from the factory then, great, keep it that way. If it has bullet holes and Normandy sand then it's story should be told.

[Ed Storey]

Unfortunately, it seems that many museums treat vehicles like a doormat. Park it outside, let the kids climb on it, the birds nest in it, the weather deteriorate it and then slap on a new coat of paint to hold it all together. Fortunately this trend is starting to change in Canada, but at an agonizingly slow pace.

There also seems to be a hierarchy of artefacts with military vehicles being at the low end of the scale. Since military vehicles are big, dirty and heavy, the tendency is to park them outside and not really pay much attention to their preservation and provenance. The consequences of this are the loss of our automotive history and the vehicles that represented it.

If this trend is to be slowed down or stopped, now is the time to do it. There has been a thread on this forum discussing how the M113 series of vehicles is being disposed of and sold for scrap. The CF used over 1000 of these vehicles, and only a fraction of them are being upgraded for future use. With only a small percentage being saved by museums this means that in the very near future any Canadian used example of this vehicle type will be a rare commodity. It is a given that collectors will no longer be allowed to privately own many types of military vehicles but were the enthusiast/collector can still make a big difference is to assist/support/pressure those museums that do display vehicles to take a scholarly and planned approach to acquiring and preserving this equipment.

The chance to save the Cold War era Canadian M Series equipment may have passed, but that does not mean that all is lost. Some of the latest Afghanistan equipment may be released and this would be the time to not only save this material, but to make sure what is preserved is not parked outside to become the latest doormat.

[chris vickery]

Bruce, It was never my intent to suggest that items be made "factory fresh"... I appreciate as found or as used items as well.
What I have a problem with is when there are blatant errors in exibitions that have been pointed out and no attempt is or has been made to remedy them.
To "restore" as vehicle and display it as an "example" during a certain proposed time frame and then throw whatever colour paint or markings on it "just because it whats we had" is not an excuse, nor correct.
The movie industry does enough of this to us already. How many M37s do you see in the average WW2 movie???

[jason meade]

So Ed do you suggest that we the museums that dont have indoor storage should be over looked in favor of the two or three museums in all of canada that do....A statment like that is crasy...This is the reason there is very little of these old vechs around, Most museums and true historians would rather have a weathered looking APC, than a picture of one in a long lost book.
As I have mentioned in the past If you dont like seeing stuff rot away then support your museums by helping out and not making snide remarks about there collections on public forums,I have been working for 15 years keeping our vech collection going with lit5tle to no support and even less pay (Minum Wage) but we do it to keep people like you and the others in pictures so books can be wrote 50 years later and have something beside black and white photos scamed out of public archives.

[Ganmain Tony]

Healthy debate fellahs... Im impressed...

From a bloke who is out in the sticks in NSW Australia. Id just be grateful to see anything, anywhere, regardless of its condition, as long as its undercover.

Just a tin roof would do.

Well....you did ask for peoples opinions from other Commonwealth countries.

[Ed Storey]

Jason, please reread my comments. I did not point any fingers at any one institution nor did my comments attack any one person. If you have issues with authors and the publication of books, perhaps you may wish to start another thread on the topic.

Since you have opened the box, I will state that many of the military bases across Canada are peppered with vehicles on public outdoor display. Many of these vehicles are now rare examples of their type and allowing them to deteriorate does little to preserve our automotive heritage. Outdoor display was/is the norm as the final resting place for surplus military vehicles; as was the policy at one time of painting every Allied vehicle semi-gloss olive drab and every axis vehicle grey.

What I am saying is that all museum artifacts need to be treated as equals. For instance, no-one would ever take a painting and use it as a doormat to the museum yet for some reason many people seem to think that leaving a military vehicle outside to the elements is an acceptable practice. My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that I am suggesting that museums take a hard look at this practice and find another way to store and preserve this material.

Rather than crying and complaining about working hours and pay and pointing at other people, why not take the reigns and attempt to move the display practices of the museum that you work for in a different direction? This is already being done in some locations, CFB Shilo comes to mind, and perhaps people like yourself, who are working hard to preserve our history can also effect change in their museum.

By properly saving the vehicle artefacts we will have preserved our automotive history for succeeding generations of Canadians to enjoy, appreciate and study; including those evil authors who apparently publish books on vehicles....

[Mike Cecil]

Gaddzooks! I'm now an 'evil author that publishes books on vehicles...'! Is that a select club I have joined unwittingly by ..... p**lishing??

Just joshing with ya, fellars...... I don't see much of a link between us 'evil authors' and displaying vehicles outside, but I have to say that even I have been guilty, in a museum environment, of offering up a 'sacrificial tank' for outside display. But this was on the basis that the museum had two more historically significant examples tucked away in storage. It wasn't a particulalry rare type, but the exercise did appease the ex-armoured corps persons who were giving the Director heaps about not having a publicly displayed tank in the grounds. So add another factor to the museum decision 'mix': external pressure groups, of which this is but one example of many.

As for outside display, I have to say that objects are estimated to deteriorate at least 15 times faster outdoors with no cover, than indoors away from sun, snow, wind and rain. Even a simple roof cuts down the rate of decay significantly.

So for objects that were, in good faith, placed outside many years ago, surely it is a matter of priority: work to move or place those at most risk (which includes its degree of rarity) under some form of cover. Of course, easy to say that sitting in front of the computer theorising, but for most museum collections, not an unreasonable aim or expense.

Mike C

[jason meade]

Ed I think you misread my reply too I am not complaining about my pay and hours, I do this because I enjoy what i do and being no money for museums we do this work for little to no credit. "My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that I am suggesting that museums take a hard look at this practice and find another way to store and preserve this material" With you being in the Military you would think you would know that military museums are at the whim of the local base commanders, some support most dont. But it takes many voices to extend a voice to Ottawa to get the point that over head cover is needed,are you willing to send a voice?

As for Going after authors and publishers, I really dont know where your coming from, What i said was "we do it to keep people like you and the others in pictures so books can be wrote 50 years later and have something beside black and white photos scamed out of public archives." You cant go back are retake photos 50 years later of a b/w photo, so with that said you can still go out and take a few photos of rusty vechs.
Lets not drag evil authors and publishers into this, That was not even close to what was being said.