Restoration Tip: Electrolysis Derusting

[mafiamike]

Ive been using molassis for years but put it waaaaaaaaaaaay down the back cos it stinks mix 1ltr syrup to 10 ltr water

[maple_leaf_eh]

You guys are a bad influence. I decided that chemicals and solvents were too much trouble to attack rusted parts, so I made a backyard electrolysis tank. The difficult step was finding washing soda in Canada. It seems to be an America only consumer product. Fortunately, one of the pages I read described how to convert baking powder into washing soda. Bake it at 300 deg F for an hour to drive out an unwanted molecule.

The set up is my 12v battery charger through a leftover 12v battery, jumper cables, some steel plates, a pair of vise grips, some chain and a piece of steel fencepost, rainwater and couple tablespoons of the powder. I used copper wire to hang the parts from the chain.

Yes, it fizzed and yes the surface coatings were softened or slid off. More time in the tank is required. Hours (like overnight) versus 1 or 2 in the evening. Mark II will be bigger and deeper with more steel plates. I will try to rig some permanent hooks on the crossbar. The big question now is how to get good electrical contact for small parts like screws.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Terry - I cannot believe you can't obtain washing soda in Canada. It is the stuff grandmas used before detergent and they used to boil their clothes in a copper. If you can obtain some scrap stainless steel, that is the best anode (+) and use stainless wire to hang everything. Stainless is the best conductor. I don't know how powerful converted baking soda is but with washing soda the ratio is one pound to a gallon.

Re. screws, I have not tried it myself, but maybe if you put them into a stainless sift and connect that to the diode, that may work. If you try that and it works, let us know please.

Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Terry

Best bet is a recycled plastic 45 gal. drum.....cut off the top with a jig saw.... no it will not explode...... allows you to dip bigger peices.... even full axle housing if you do one end then the other....

You will need some cheap yellow nylon rope for hanging things.

Washing soda is readily available in rural Home hardware stores.

Remember the bigger the sacrificial plate is ....the faster it works and the more currant it takes. I used a strip of Stailess steel ( 40 x 18 in) from a recycled restaurant counter..... and curved it to fit inside the barrell..... all around the perimeter.....

Just hang the pieces from the centre.... direct line between SS and parts to be cleaned is best.

I used a mild lye solution.....also from Home hardware..... but it is caustic and the drum can only be dumped on a heavy rainy downpour.

I cheated and made my solution very strong..... it removed rust.... grease and even paint form cast surfaces.....also drained two large batteries in a few hours...... careful with just an average size battery charger.... you can easily over load them..... some will have a safety shut down//// cheaper ones will just fry themsleves.

Really workes wonders......

Small parts...... screws and bolts..... I usually replace them with new stock... but if I had to clean them I would be inclined to screw them in a thin sheet of SS and hang it in the barrell.

SS as a sacrificial plate will not alter color.... but .... if you use a cast iron plate it will color the part being cleaned jet black......

I usually scrub the cleaned parts with a hose and a 3M pad... sun dry.... and spray with diluted Phosphoric acid....... available as metal prep in body shops..... sun dries to a flat grey...... makes for an ideal surface prep for any kind of paint......

Do your process outside..... as the fizzling is actually hydrogen..... as in KABOOM......

Bob

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

...

Washing soda is readily available in rural Home hardware stores.

...

I used a mild lye solution.....also from Home hardware..... but it is caustic and the drum can only be dumped on a heavy rainy downpour.

...

if you use a cast iron plate it will color the part being cleaned jet black......

...

What brand is the washing soda? Arm & Hammer is "So Clean, Super Washing Soda", and supposedly Walmart, Zellars and Canadian Tire sell it. Pfft! None on the shelf or in their on line catalogues. I was planning on visiting Home Hardware and Tractor Supply Company next.

So you make a solution of lye and washing soda? Sounds like a chemistry hazard in-waiting.

The colour is a good tip. The plates I have are ordinary carbon steel. Colour is not so much an issue because the parts will all get painted over. But removing the old finish and surface rust is secondary to getting the rusted swivels unseized. I will try lying them in a shallow pan with holes for solution circulation. Saddly, most of them are crusty with wood fibre or pits. The hardware is important to the project because some are odd little short and coarse thread woodscrews. [I'm stripping circa 1946 C No.7 .22LR rifle chest hardware from derelict chests for resale on the collector's and No.15 sniper rifle chest reproduction market. Special deal for any MLU'ers who want a set.]

I am going to politely decline using stainless steel. A few of the forums I read talk about hexavalent chromium compounds released by reverse electrolysis of stainless (anyone remember Erin Brockovich?).

[universalgrl]

First off Pepsie contains more phosphoric acid than coke. I prefer rum with my coke, spiced or dark :
I am trying a produce called Evapo-rust which works by a selective chelation process www.evaporust.ca tel 416-543-0717 which is avaiable at most automotive shops.
The product works pretty good for soaking ferrous items overnight

Roberta
AKA Universalgrl

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Terry - to get swivels, hinges and such like un-seized, you are better off using a solution of molasses. It takes a while but works.

Re. all the fumes, toxins released from stainless, that should not be a problem as you are electrolysis derusting in a well ventilated area, or hopefully so.

Bob

[Dave Schindel]

I've been using vinegar and it works great.Just soak the parts for 2 days or so,and an air blast will remove most rust.Then a wire wheel or brush to finish.It's relatively clean,esp.compared to molasses,and doesn't need to be mixed.And environmentally friendly.

[Bob Carriere]

...Sail surplus branch has a whole stack of deteriorating 303 rifle boxes which they may part with a lot of them for some $$$......... wood is bad but the hardware may be in good shape.


Chemistry....... Duh..... don't mix washing soda and lye unless you are trying to remove stains from your underwear. .......... I used Lye INSTEAD of washing soda as it is more agressive...... seriously the lye solution conducts electricity like wild fire....... it is a serious degreaser and paint remover.....so three jobs done in one soak..... but it is toxic.....as in corrosive...... when I dipped my hands in teh solution to fish out parts my skin came out very clean and slightly slimmy....... which is indicative that body fat is being desolved.

I hung whole CMP axles from the tractor bucket soaking one half the axle at a time....... axles came come like brand new.

Bob

[maple_leaf_eh]

Bob: Can you keep the chests at SAIL as our little secret? And, you earned you rations today.

Home Hardware not only had Arm & Hammer "So Clean, super washing soda", but the salesman knew exactly where to find in and there were 4 boxes on the shelf. The little half-width store at Heron Rd and Bank street moved up the hill nearer to Alta Vista. Bigger and much less cramped, but with no less high quality service. Phooey on Walmart, Zellers, Canadian Tire and Shoppers Drug Mart!

So, this weekend the electolysis tank will be reconfigured to Mk II. More to follow.

[Bob Carriere]

Seriously they have tons of them and they kept them outside for too long.... the wood is shot.....hardware os al salvageable...... if you are looking at some small business venture make them a reasonable offer for the lot.... we could probably fill my 20 foot trailer and you can store extras at the barn...... will cost you fuel and burgers plus a few that might disappear while in storage but not without your knowledge.

Next thing is you will need a jig and a good router to cut the boxed fingers for the corners...... repro hard wood available from small saw mills in Clarence cheaper than Home Despot...... Lee Valley here I come....

If I can be of any service..... whisper!!!!

Cheers.

Bob C

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Bob - what is Lye?

Bob

[Bob Carriere]

...is what you tell your wife when you buy one too many CMP.....


Lye is a corrosive alkaline substance, commonly sodium hydroxide (NaOH, also known as 'caustic soda') or historically potassium hydroxide (KOH, from hydrated potash).

Not sure what the relationship is between "caustic soda" and "Washing soda" but I know it is not club soda.....!!!!

Boob

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

...is what you tell your wife when you buy one too many CMP.....


Lye is a corrosive alkaline substance, commonly sodium hydroxide (NaOH, also known as 'caustic soda') or historically potassium hydroxide (KOH, from hydrated potash).

Not sure what the relationship is between "caustic soda" and "Washing soda" but I know it is not club soda.....!!!!

Boob

Bob.
Sodium bi carbonate will make you burp after a bad night in the barn..
Sodium bicarbonate, also called sodium hydrogen carbonate and commonly known as baking soda, has NaHCO3 for a chemical formula.

Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda or soda ash), Na2CO3 is a sodium salt of carbonic acid.

Don't mix them up unless you want to wash your insides..
I use it all the time..Mix in a spray bottle with water it will remove grease too.Great stuff.
Sold under the name Boraxo or those fancy products that remove stains off anything you can think of...
Just a fancy ,expensive way to get your money for cheap washing soda..
All the same stuff..Sodium carbonate...not BI CARBONATE...Sodium CARBONATE<<>

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some links I came across on another forum, no idea if they were posted here already:

http://schoepp.hylands.net/electrolyticrust.html

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...es/E-CLEAN.TXT

http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php

[Harry Moon]

I think we should put the best information at the top of this thread so the next guy doesn't use a pound of sodium carbonate per gallon instead of a teaspoon or two.
like I just did and then came in after everything is set up only to read the rest of the thread again.

[Bob Carriere]

So what happened Harry....... did you bubble off the whole neighbourhood....

.....geez I am still laughing..... boy no heart burn for you !!!!!!

Bob

[Jacques Reed]

I note phosphoric acid and mollasses has been mentioned in the post a couple of times. I have used those means to de-rust most of my parts smaller than the chassis and cab floor.
For those that may want to try the phosphoric acid method, it is available as various metal prep solutions at most auto parts stores but it is a very expensive way to obtain it.
I obtain 5 litre to 20 litre drums of the stuff from ship's chemical suppliers. Commonly called "rust stain remover" it is used to tidy up paint on ships to save frequent repainting. Thats how cruise ships stay white and U-boats became rusty brown in the winter North Atlantic.
Some brands are Unitor, Allied Chemicals, Gamlen to name a few. I use in Australia "Scale Off" made by True Blue Chemicals.
Although it is an acid, about a 5% solution, and gloves are required if you get some on your fingers they won't dissove or even burn. the fact I am typing this reply proves it.

Brgds,

[jack neville]

I have tried this method using a small wheelie bin to which I added a kilo of washing soda. Worked well but my battery charger kept clicking on and off. The bigger the piece to clean the less the charger stayed on before clicking off. I am using a 12 volt charger, 2200 miliamp. Is it too small? I want to get a large wheelie bin as I like the method. Can someone recommend the charger I would be best using for best results.

I am still not sure what the best recommended ratio of washing soda to water is. There are a couple of suggestions in this thread.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by jack neville

I have tried this method using a small wheelie bin to which I added a kilo of washing soda. Worked well but my battery charger kept clicking on and off. The bigger the piece to clean the less the charger stayed on before clicking off. I am using a 12 volt charger, 2200 miliamp. Is it too small? I want to get a large wheelie bin as I like the method. Can someone recommend the charger I would be best using for best results.

I am still not sure what the best recommended ratio of washing soda to water is. There are a couple of suggestions in this thread.

Hi Jack,
If you are using only a charger, why not use a battery, with the charger connected to it, may stop the charger cutting on and off.

regards, Richard

[maple_leaf_eh]

@Jack - I think you need to read through the thread to see what ratios to use. I think you are too rich with the soda. The power supply might be working too hard. In my opinion, less soda is better than lots of soda.

[Bob Carriere]

The size of the parts and the size of the sacrificial electrode will dictate the current needed.

We used a plastic 45 gallons / 200 + liters........with a Lye solution. Had a huge sheet of stainless steel curled on the inside of the drum parts were suspended in the center.....like axle suspended from the tractor front loader.

I ran a ten amp bat. charger connected to 2 huge truck batteries. In 3 hours the axle housing was cleaned and both batteried were near dead.

Batteries were recharged overnite and the other half of the axle done.

Scums and gas bubbles on top was an inch thick...... we did this outside in the open so fumes or hydrogen gas was not an issue. Lye was strong enough to require gloves but it removed paint and hard caked gear oil residue like you would not believe.

Rinsed with the pressure washer....sun dried and phospated...sun dried and painted with POR 15.

To run this process on a large scale would require a large and expensive bat. charger...... batteries was quicker for us.

Bob

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Jack,
Try changing the size of your other plate. I use a small 4 amp battery charger, and just varied the size of the plate I clamped the Neg. lead to until the it stopped cutting out.
Rich.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Jack - I have had trouble with chargers as well. The problem with the modern chargers is that they have a safety cut-out making it think that what it is connectd to is charged. Old fashioned chargers are the best. All the recipies are contained within this thread.

Bob

[Ric Davies]

My mate in the West did the whole cab of a GMC 6x6 with this method. He used a truck bin with a tarp to line it. He used a world war 11 Ford V8 powered DC welder to supply the current. 20 litres of petrol, with the engine at idle, and attached to the anodes worked a treat. His experiments and experiences getting to this point remain a secret to maintain face.

[jack neville]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

Hi Jack - I have had trouble with chargers as well. The problem with the modern chargers is that they have a safety cut-out making it think that what it is connectd to is charged. Old fashioned chargers are the best. All the recipies are contained within this thread.

Bob

Anyone got an old style charger they want to sell?

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Jack - I obtain all mine from swap meets and garage sales and they normally go pretty cheaply.

Bob

[jack neville]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

Hi Jack - I obtain all mine from swap meets and garage sales and they normally go pretty cheaply.

Bob

That's what I'm after!!!

[Private_collector]

Came across this thread, while hunting for information on removing rust using electrolysis. I see it hasn't been added to in past several years. Perhaps we can reignite interest and discussion again, as I would imagine a number of folks have been using this method of cleanup, or at least have an interest in the subject.

A couple of weeks ago, I was given the lower portion of a 3" mortar, that was originally to be restored by the donator, (Tony V) and the author of this thread, the late Bob Moseley. I believe the electrolysis method was to be one option considered for the removal of rust and debris. I would like to follow through with the restoration, and ideally use this removal process, if possible

I had used a very small scale electrolysis setup to test ability to remove crap from a minor (and easily replaced) part I had laying around. The process worked rather well, especially as I had no prior experience and materials were most definately less than state of the art. This time I want to have a setup that can remain intact and together, allowing it's immediate use for future cleaning needs.

First, the choice of materials. I've read a lot of anecdotes about the virtues of Washing Soda, and note some folks have had difficulty in obtaining it. No such problem in my town, and quite possibly rest of Australia, because I found it without even looking. While dragging myself through the all too frequent grocery shopping, trying not to lose the will to live, I found Washing Soda in the detergent section (a reasonably good choice) of our local grocery chain store.

The stuff is readily available from Woolworths stores, and comes in 1kg bags. The irony of the brand name did not escape my notice. Not having surity of quantity per litre, nor size of the cleaning tank I would use, I bought two bags, and still had change from $10.

Our property is rural, and although we have grid connect electricity, most days we require only our stand alone solar power system. Having had the house built with energy efficiency in mind, certainly went in our favor with regards to suitability for solar power. The PV array is only 1.5kW, and our four 6V storage batteries are modest in capacity, despite each being impossible to lift without an engine crane. I can already hear folks thinking 'so what's that got to do with removing rust with electrolysis?'. Simple really. I'm very impressed with ability to get the vast majority of our daily electrical needs courtesy of the sun, and wondered if the same result could be achieved for removing rust. Why not, I'd still be using electricity, just electricity that didn't cost anything, and hopefully the setup could be made permanent and remain in place between uses. Ideally, the unused power could be utilised to run the lights in my workshop. Over a year ago, a friend gave me one of those cube shaped liquid carrying tanks that are commonly used (in Australia, anyway) for long distance cartage and storage. From memory, I believe it holds 1000 litres, and would be roughly 4 & 1/2 foot in all dimensions. It came with a light gauge steel cage around it, my friend had installed a ball cock tap (dirty minds!) for emptying. It's been sitting in my yard, just waiting for a job like this. Even the metal cage around the tank will be ideal for securing things to.

A fortnight ago, after receiving my mortar parts, I started looking through the auction sites and newspapers for suitable solar equipment.

This is a 250w panel I picked up on Wednesday. A fellow about 2km away from me is selling these for $100ea. They are used, several years old, and in extremely good condition. Apparently when people upgrade their solar setup, they frequently change the panels as well, and rarely do folks ask to retain the old ones! God bless the throw away society. Curious that while trying to be 'sustainable', they are potentially discarding materials that have barely been broken in, let alone broken down. My panel is roughly 1.7m by .9m in dimension, and YES it did fit in the car pictured, for the trip home........on very quiet country backroad.

My panel has retained the correct connections needed for proper external installation. Some folks cut these off, in their frenzy to get them off the roof.

A suitable solar regulator/charger was purchased a week ago. The required connecting cables between PV panel, regulator/charger, battery, and junction box on my shed, arrived just yesterday. Many months ago I purchased a solar powered extractor fan, that was to be used on our house to remove the excess heat in the roof cavity that greatly increases the temperature inside during summer. The home is well insulated and once heat has built up, its difficult to dissipate easily. While the solar extractor fan would achieve that goal, I was surprised how lightly constructed it was, and had doubts about it's longevity. Having now talked myself out of putting that fan on my roof, it will be used on the lid of my electrolysis tank instead. The fan only operates during the day, but then so will my whole setup, even though I plan to use a fairly standard 12V deep cycle battery to deliver the power.

Next stage is to choose a location for siting everything permanently, and making a concrete base for the pole that will hold my PV panel and associated equipment.

That bit, coming soon...

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

.... Over a year ago, a friend gave me one of those cube shaped liquid carrying tanks that are commonly used (in Australia, anyway) for long distance cartage and storage. From memory, I believe it holds 1000 litres, and would be roughly 4 & 1/2 foot in all dimensions. It came with a light gauge steel cage around it,

....

By definition, 1 cubic metre of water is 1 tonne, and contains 1000 litres of water. Pure water at sea level at the equator.