WW2 Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Transport

[alamotex]

Thanks Mike 86 of those GL III(c) radar sets were shipped to OZ sometime in 1943 (or perhaps early 1944) and we know that all arrived safely. A contingent of Canadian technical personnel was sent out to provide training and assistance. This has been well documented and just one or two of those personnel are still alive today...I correspond with one of them.

Cheers Brian

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, Tony, the commercial aspects ... 'business as usual' ... seemed to prevail and the Australian government were very conscious about maintaining exports and a balance of trade.

I'm not sure many people appreciate (as you do) just how much of the merchant fleets used/chartered by the Allies during the war were essentially foreign: much of the military hardware transported to and from Australia went on Dutch, Greek, Danish, Norwegian, and other, 'non-Dominion' shipping. Many were equipped with defensive armament (eg deck guns and paravanes) in Australian ports and in some instances manned by Australian service personnel.

Mike C

[David Dunlop]

Back in the 1960's I had a summer job with a Winnipeg Grain Company and our Commodities Department shared an office with the Export Department. They used to have a set of large, red, leather bound journals published by Lloyd's in Export which they referenced when arranging to ship goods. I recall they gave a pretty complete description and history of each vessel contained therein, and the records went back at least ten years or more with regards to noting when a ship had been lost at sea, scrapped, or was in for overhaul somewhere. Quite an interesting read.

Canada operated a large merchant fleet during the war, but I can think of only one foreign vessel they took over. I believe it was an Italian cargo ship that tried to make a run for it down the St. Lawrence, when Italy declared war. It was intercepted around Rimouski, QC and added to the Canadian Fleet. I think a U-Boat finally sank it on the way to Britain a couple of years later.

David

[Mike Cecil]

David,

I think that would be the Capo Noli, captured in the StL Seaway by HMCS Bras d'Or on 10 June 1940, and renamed the SS Bic Island. She was sunk by U224 on 29 October 1942, with the tragic loss of all hands and the rescued survivors of two other merchant ships.

I think you'll find there were a small number of prize vessels on the Canadian register during WW2 from a variety of countries: Finland, Denmark, Germany and Italy. I think this was the only Italian vessel. Carolus was ex-Finland, and MV Europa was ex-Danish. Vancouver Island was ex-German. Certainly an interesting period in shipping history!

Brian: what a great recollection! And gives us the ship that some of the Canadians travelled on, too. The MV Roseville is listed as a cargo ship with capacity for 12 first class passengers. Wonder how many they crammed into that space during the war.

Mike C

[motto]

What an interesting thread! A glimpse of the legal ramifications and nuts and bolts of maritime warfare.

Of course, the precedence in regards to commercial shipping operations during time of war had been set and refined over hundreds of years and were well understood. Even global war and ocean wide operations were nothing new.

As an example. During the war of 1812 the Royal Navy blockaded the entire East Coast of the United States at the same time as strangling all French ports and shipping. This inevitably involved interfering with shipping of other nations. The legal implications were awesome and also had to be dealt with.

Lloyds of London were not about to close their doors for the duration.

David

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by motto

Even global war and ocean wide operations were nothing new. As an example. During the war of 1812 the Royal Navy blockaded the entire East Coast of the United States at the same time as strangling all French ports and shipping. This inevitably involved interfering with shipping of other nations.

...meanwhile Napoleon blockaded the Baltic to deny the British their lucrative trade routes, thus interfering with even more nations shipping!

An even earlier example of global maritime warfare/commerce would be the various East India Trading Companies - British, Dutch, Portuguese, Danish, French, Swedish - who roamed the world's seas in heavily armed gunships, plying their trade and conquering new empires as they went, and routinely engaging eachother on the high seas to defend their sales territory! This went on for a couple of centuries, with the British EITC ultimately prevailing - hence the British Empire, with a few crumbs left for the rest to colonize!

As you say David it's an interesting thread, although we seem to have digressed a bit from CMP shipments!

[David Dunlop]

With regards to Dutch shipping during WW2, my Mum travelled in a convoy from Liverpool to Algeria aboard the SS Volendam in late 1941 early 1942. She was with the NAAFI at the time.

With regards to the wartime CMP activity across the Pacific, firstly, 'Holden' is associated with General Motors in Australia. Where were Ford's operations based? Also, did most sea traffic arrive at one particular port, or was it spread around as much as possible? I seem to remember reading about a large military base somewhere on the West Coast of Australia where a number of CMP vehicles were abandoned after the war. Not sure I ever heard why.

David

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

much of the merchant fleets used/chartered by the Allies during the war were essentially foreign: much of the military hardware transported to and from Australia went on Dutch, Greek, Danish, Norwegian, and other, 'non-Dominion' shipping.

It's a good point you make Mike, we tend to regard such countries as having been sidelined by German occupation, but of course the bulk of their shipping remained at sea and made a huge contribution to the Allied war effort. We also forget that relatively small countries like Norway, Denmark, and the Netherlands were possessed of enormous merchant fleets, dating from their historical association with the Baltic trade. It would be interesting to know the actual figures, but I suspect that in the early years of WW2, perhaps a third of Allied merchant shipping was foreign. Given that shipping was the limiting factor in Allied strategy, it's difficult to overestimate that contribution.

[alamotex]

Originally Posted by alamotex

Thanks Mike 86 of those GL III(c) radar sets were shipped to OZ sometime in 1943 (or perhaps early 1944) and we know that all arrived safely. A contingent of Canadian technical personnel was sent out to provide training and assistance. This has been well documented and just one or two of those personnel are still alive today...I correspond with one of them.

Cheers Brian

The following was written by my WW II Canadian Army radar veteran friend reminiscing about an incident that occurred to him and his buddy, shipbound to New Guinea.


>Meanwhile I have been thinking of times past where you and I were
>involved and the sea voyage from San Francisco to New Guinea and
>eventually to Australia came to mind. That was a long voyage from S
>F to Milne Bay, New Guinea; 29 days without stopping or setting foot
>on solid land. Or even seeing land except for a couple of brief
>views of islands which we passed.
>
>You will recall that six of us went on the Norwegian freighter the
>MS Roseville: three warrant officers, you, Blackie and I and three
>officers; Ernie Duvernet, Bruce Brock and Dag Davidge. There were
>quite a few other passengers but we were the only Canadians.
>
>Two or three funny things happened during our voyage and on our way
>from Port Moresby down to Sydney.
>
>The first had to do with the Oerlikon guns which we were assigned to
>man in case of an encounter with Japanese forces. I was paired with
>Bruce Brock and you were on the other side of the ship on another
>gun with Ernie Duvernet.
>There were about eight oerlikons, four on each side of the ship and
>a naval gun fore and aft. We did not expect any excitement but one
>night about halfway across the Pacific the ship's alarm bells
>started to ring and we were rousted out of bed up on deck in the
>pitch black to man our guns. This was getting interesting. The ship
>was zigging and zagging furiously and we fully expected to come
>under fire or be torpedoed at any moment.
>
>Now we had had about five minutes instruction on handling the guns
>and had not even seen one fired. When I arrived at our gun at the
>port side of the ship, Bruce was already there. I said to him "Do
>you remember how to fire this thing?" and he said "No". That was not
>very encouraging!
>
>So we stood by in the dark hoping that a Jap destroyer or sub would
>not appear and feeling pretty useless because if that did happen we
>would not be able to fire our gun.
>
>Finally after quite a long time the all clear sounded and the ship
>steadied up and we went back to bed.
>
>In the morning of course the ship was a-buzz with stories of the
>night before and we began to hear a rumour that the whole thing was
>a false alarm called in by one of the Norwegian gunners on watch who
>had reported that he saw the wake of a torpedo go past our stern.
>
>The theory was that the gunners were not happy with the captain who
>insisted on leaving one mast light on all night despite the ruling
>that all lights had to be doused. The story was that the captain was
>afraid of colliding with another ship during the night because he
>had had that happen previously with the Roseville.
>
>Incidentally just recently I looked up the history of the Roseville
>on the Web and sure enough it had been in a collision with another
>ship a year or so prior to our getting on board. The accident had
>necessitated a lot of repair. It is amazing what you can find on the
>Internet. There was a photo of the Roseville which I sent to you.
>Not a very impressive ship.
>
>It is amazing what time will do to one's memories. One of our
>officers whom I will not name was sure in recent years that a sub
>had surfaced and fired shells at us on that occasion. At one of our
>reunions I assured him that there was no sub and no attack.
>
>Do you remember all that?
>So whether this alarm was a false one or not the story circulating
>sounded somewhat feasible.
>
>The story of this incident got out as four of the passengers were
>old-timer war correspondents and this was grist to their mills. The
>next day a US flying boat appeared circling the ship before flying
>off back to wherever. So obviously radio messages had been sent out
>during the "attack".


This WW II veteran is in his 90's Cheers Brian