Carrier stencilling

[motto]

I've not heard it called that Lynn but that would be it. Most of it's in rolls 20" diameter and 10 " or so wide. Each roll weighs in at around 60lb.

David

[shaun]

Originally Posted by Ian Mastin

Hi Shaun,

Great looking carrier you've got and also to uncover most of the original marking's Unsure if you know about this web site but have a look at it! it may help you! special with the yellow circle on the front gaurd.
www.axholmesigns.co.uk
I found it when I was looking for British marking's that are on my Fordson WOT2-H, as you can see via the photo on the passenger door and the Driver's side front gaurd it has the yellow square with the number 14 marked inside it.

The web site state it represrents "B" Squadron unsure what that means maybe you shell some light on it for me Shaun.


Kind regards
Ian

Ian, the square does mean either "B" squadron/company. The same markings are still in use today in the British army. The "14" is the call sign. Thanks for the link .

[shaun]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Gentlemen.

I have a collection of Ford of Canada production photos taken at Windsor, Ontario during production of the UC Carrier and Windsor. When these vehicles rolled out of the factory, all the Kit Stowage points were identified on the Carrier with white on clear water transfer decals. These are easily identified by the solid white letters and in some cases by the light reflecting from the clear transfer film.

The only painted stencils Ford applied to the Carriers on completion were the 'SLING HERE' markings on the front plate and rear deck, adjacent to the lifting rings.

Once these vehicles were in service, general wear and tear took it's toll on the factory original decals and, as needed, the Army reapplied the markings using painted stencils, typically about twice as large a font as the original decals.

When I was at Bill Gregg's Convention many years ago, Bill showed me one of the Ford Lynx Scout Cars he had brought back from Europe. It too had several surviving white on clear stowage location decals still visible both in and outside the vehicle.

I think also, CM used black on clear stowage location stencils on the inside of the Staghound Armoured Car at the factory.

David

David, it would be great to see any carrier related images you have .

I now strongly believe ( having seen a few carriers over the years) the stencil I have been finding were applied at the factory. All the other images others have been posting are all to uniform to have been done at unit level.

[David Dunlop]

Hi Shaun.

I will dig them up and see what I can do. They are large format photos, so I will likely have to fiddle with scan/cropping them to work well in the thread.

Cheers for now,


David

[B. Harris]

Not seen very often..
Tripod and cover

Harris...

[David Dunlop]

I finally located the photos from Ford Canada and will start cropping the decals information for you. The original photos are all 8 x 10 glossy format. If I leave them as is, they will grind the forum to a halt and Hanno will be travelling over here in short order to KMA! If I compress the photos, the details will be completely lost.

Interestingly, one of the photos Ford sent me is a full right side shot of their Windsor prototype, which they created by stretching a standard UC. It shows where the extensions were installed, what sections of the UC remained original and the dimensions of same. Possibly enough information to create a working "Windsor" chassis assembly.

Back later,


David

[David Dunlop]

The only stencil Ford applied to the Carrier at the factory was the "SLING HERE" markings by the front and rear lifting rings. These are in white Gothic lettering.

At the front, the word "SLING" is centred over the word "HERE" with a 0.050 inch space between the words. The stencil is located one inch above the front edge of the lower hull plate and 6 inches in from either inside fender surface.

At the rear of the carrier "SLING HERE" forms a single line on both sides of the rear top axle cover plate, inboard of the rear lifting rings. Curiously, they have the same orientation, in that they are both readable from the right side of the vehicle.

Available decals to follow shortly.

David

[David Dunlop]

This will by no means be a complete and definitive work, as not all the photos I obtained from Ford of Canada show all stowage locations, or show them clearly without kit in place. I get a sense from all of them that Ford worked pretty closely with the military to work out where various items could best be stowed and this was likely a continuous process throughout the war, as equipment and needs changed.

The decals are all the same font size. White, Gothic Lettering, 0.50 inches high and 7/16ths of an inch wide. The individual lines of the letters are 0.125 inches thick.

The first decal is for the Bren Tripod. Sorry for the blur but it was at the closest point to the camera which was focused more on the top engine cover items.

The other two decals show the Pouches Decal noticed on two locations. All such pouch stowage bars probably had this decal. The one inside the upper left rear of the vehicle is a bit hard to spot due to the vertical orientation of the camera.

As an aside, I will post a photo from Ford on a separate thread of these pouches.

David

[David Dunlop]

My apologies for this photo as I cannot get the detail of these decals due to the distance from the camera and the resolution limits.

"SPARE WHEEL" just shows at 11 o'clock under the spare wheel on the deck.

"BREN M/G" is applied to the upper triangular face of the grab handle bracket where the gun rest and canvas hold down strap are located.

"2" MORTAR" is applied to the mortar mounting bracket at the apex of the mortar barrel and the angled side armour.

Inboard of each fire extinguisher, either side of the gun port is the decal "FIRE EXTINGUISHER" reading from bottom to top.

David

[David Dunlop]

Again, it is hard to nail the detail, and Ford was clearly playing with all of their toys with these shots, but there are six decals in total on the top of the engine cover.

In the first photo there are four decals that can be read from the left side of the vehicle. The first three, from the bottom up, are under the two Enfields. They are equally spaced apart and read as follows:

"SERVICE RIFLE"
"SERVICE RIFLE"
"FIRE EXTINGUISHER"

Underneath the Sten Mag is:

"BOYS RIFLE"

On top of the fan shroud, just aft of the partition plate and read front the back of the vehicle is:

"AERIAL ROD CASES & FLAGS SIGNALLING"

Centered on the Rad Cap Cover, and read from the front of the vehicle for some reason is"

"BOYS RIFLE BIPOD"

The second photo shows parts of these decals from rear angle.

David

[Michael R.]

A brief look before I delete this, no stencils, but perhaps what Dave D refers?

[David Dunlop]

The forward end of the track sponson in this compartment has two decals, both read from the rear of the vehicle. The first one, by the trailing edge of the fan shroud, reads:

"SIGNAL SATCHEL"

The second decal, roughly at the midpoint of the folding seat assembly reads:

"W/T SET Nos 11, 18, 19 OR 22"

The first photo is an overhead shot and the second taken at an angle from the rear of the vehicle.

That covers all of the visible decals I have from the Ford of Canada photos.

Best regards,

David

[David Dunlop]

Yes, that is the prototype. Ford's File # Reference on the Photo is E23-2.


David

[rob love]

If those are decals, they seem to have been cut off the master sheet freehand with a pocket knife. The edges are very non-square nor strait.

[Michael R.]

Is there any chance the original lettering may have been stenciled using white paint, with a clear coat of varnish or shellac type of material over the lettered area?

[Ben]

Decals, similar to those found in toys were reasonably common at the time.

When the flying tigers AVG flew in China they have the famous shark mouth on the front of their P40's but Disney designed them a flying tiger emblem. These emblems were sent as decals to the group in China but they found they tore off during flight, to keep them on the sides of the planes they were varnished over to give them a protective sealer coat. This leaves an irregular darker area around the emblem. This could explain the darker shadows around the lettering. If they were supplied as decals but given the protection of a layer of varnish.

Ben

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Again, it is hard to nail the detail, and Ford was clearly playing with all of their toys with these shots, but there are six decals in total on the top of the engine cover.

In the first photo there are four decals that can be read from the left side of the vehicle. The first three, from the bottom up, are under the two Enfields. They are equally spaced apart and read as follows:

"SERVICE RIFLE"
"SERVICE RIFLE"
"FIRE EXTINGUISHER"

Underneath the Sten Mag is:

"BOYS RIFLE"

On top of the fan shroud, just aft of the partition plate and read front the back of the vehicle is:

"AERIAL ROD CASES & FLAGS SIGNALLING"

Centered on the Rad Cap Cover, and read from the front of the vehicle for some reason is"

"BOYS RIFLE BIPOD"

The second photo shows parts of these decals from rear angle.

David

I thought I knew my way around WW2 kit when it came to Bren carriers but this item has me stumped. What the heck is it? A very poor mock-up of a Boys rifle? Mocked up PIAT?

[David Dunlop]

When I first looked at the photos, I noticed the same thing Rob did, that a number of the edges looked a bit sloppy. Then I eventually remembered in my model building days that from time to time I would run across a kit in which all the decals were assembled on one solid, clear backing sheet and they were a pain in the ass to try and cut out the ones you needed. The individually made decals were so much neater to work with but maybe there is a cost factor in producing them that way. The more I think of the use of them to ID storage items on the carrier and other AFV's, the more I see them as a temporary item, that was not expected to have a long life expectancy. They were probably used to support the printed Stowage Sheets issued with the manuals for the vehicle. The crew would quickly get used to where things went, changed things around as they saw fit and if and when the decals wore away, it didn't matter.

Michael R. : I don't know off the top of my head, of any stencils that are capable of producing solid lined closed letters like B, P, D, O, R or Q, without the centre parts of the letters falling out. That it the give away ID for a true stencil. They always have closed letters formed in segments, with small webs of the stencil material needed to keep the letters together. A silk screening stencil will produce a solid lined, closed letter, but silk screening only works well in unobstructed locations, as the screens are quite bulky. You can also often see the screening pattern on the surface of the letters when completed.

Ben. A varnish overlay would make sense. Several of the rub-on lettering kits one can buy today (Letterset???) provide spray cans of coating to protect the lettering after application. Also, the panels on the 19-Sets used decals. These were applied over silk screened radium paint blocks located by each control on the panel and then the panel was given a coat of varnish to lock everything all down.

David

[David Dunlop]

Your last guess is the winner. It is a PIAT. I have never heard of the PIAT being part of the kit for a carrier either, but clearly Ford was using them to see where they might be stored. If you factor in all the vehicles Ford built during the war, they must have had quite an Ordnance Room to play with!

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Your last guess is the winner. It is a PIAT. I have never heard of the PIAT being part of the kit for a carrier either, but clearly Ford was using them to see where they might be stored. If you factor in all the vehicles Ford built during the war, they must have had quite an Ordnance Room to play with!

David

I'd say mock-up then. There are too many detail missing for it to be real.

On the carrier stencil/decal question, I'd suggest the clear rectangular background indicates decal. On the other hand there was another method of applying markings as seen on these items recovered from the interior of my Fox that appear printed or stamped.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Michael R.

A brief look before I delete this

Hello Michael,

Why would you delete it?

Hanno

[David Dunlop]

Maybe they took the real PIAT's away from Ford because they found the workers shooting each others thermos flasks all over the plant.

A rubber stamp would certainly work well on reasonably small tasks. The item with the C Broad Arrow mark certainly looks like a rubber stamp that took a bit of a bounce, and the GRENADE marking has a stamped look to it as well.

The C Broad Arrow stamps came in quite a number of sizes, and I think I have only ever seen black or white stamps for it. Often wondered what they used for the marking fluid: an 'ink', regular paint or a special paint. When done on canvas, it does not seem to cake like paint. It soaks into the surface of the fabric and I don't think I have ever seen one of these stamps where too much fluid was applied. It always seems to be exactly the right amount.

Cheers for now,


David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

The C Broad Arrow stamps came in quite a number of sizes, and I think I have only ever seen black or white stamps for it. Often wondered what they used for the marking fluid: an 'ink', regular paint or a special paint.


David

I'd add yellow as seen on wireless sets. Those appear to be stamped with paint sometimes with surplus paint beyond the edge of the "C".

[Asbjørn]

Here are some original stencils off a Canadian UC No. 2 Mk. II* made in December 1944. All except the "sling here" stencils are original.

[Asbjørn]

More:

[Asbjørn]

Last:

[Michael R.]

Those images recording the stencils for the NO-2 MKII* are excellent. Not much question regarding the stencil method, the over-spray,
and the former original colour of the machine under that less than desirable top coat.

The protective screen over the central radiator opening in the divisional wall is interesting. Nice to see the publications data plate beside the original glove box.

The museum appears in need of a MKII* petrol funnel for the stowage box ...

[Ben]

Perfect. Thanks for taking the time to record what you have.

Ben

[stephen crowhurst]

thank you very much for posting these pictures, I will have to study them hard for all the anomalies I have already seen.

The first one that jumps out is the flare bracket. Would you be able to give me some measurements of it at some point please.

Thanks Stephen