Wearing of uniforms (Canada)

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

Just chiming in here...I wore my DEU whilst I attended Nov 11 ceremonies while still serving.

After my CRA release, 2005, I continued to do so as recently as last year and intend to carry on.

If I was allowed to keep my uniform, why can't I wear it on auspicious occasions?

Should someone question me, I can produce my NDI 75.

The practice of wearing current CF uniform after retirement is not allowed and you could incur the wrath of Civvie/Military police. Whether a judge would throw away the key is fully dependant on 'intent'.
Although Mess Dress is privately purchased, it is still an order of dress of the CF and permission must be sought to wear it in retirement from DHH.
The initial stink was caused by an unknown person attending the dinner wearing a uniform of a Captain, RCN. This idividual had no ribbons and was ubnknown to any of the other guests. When asked to identify himself he admitted that he was an 'admirer' of the Navy and dressed the part in honour of the RCN. The memo that followed was to address that particular transgression but it also caught up a couple of retired Navy types in Mess Dress who had not obtained DHH approval.
Personally, I wore a uniform when I was paid to. I would not wear one today as I would not wish to be mistaken for a serving soldier. This is in respect to those that are in service and all of the risks inherent to that duty.
DUCIMUS
Clive

[rob love]

Well stated Clive.....100% agreement with all you have said.

The fellow in the RCN Navy outfit had a neat idea.......banquet crashing. I would hate to pass out at a Navy gathering though. You know the old joke: How does the Navy separate the men from the boys? With a crowbar.

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by rob love

... You know the old joke: How does the Navy separate the men from the boys? With a crowbar.

No longer done in the Navy (so sayth an old tar whom I chat with from time to time when bored senseless). They now use hot water.

Back to reality - yes, permission is required by former members to wear mess dress at functions including weddings and mess dinners. My naval acquaintance recently went through this process, which turned out to be a fairly easy "evolution".

Personally, since I no longer fit my mess dress (no, not a real dress), I won't wear it. Instead, I wear a dinner jacket (and pants - for those who would find it necessary to take the time to ask) and black tie.

It would be fun to see a Military Policeman running in a retired senior officer for wearing his mess togs without authorization...

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

It would be fun to see a Military Policeman running in a retired senior officer for wearing his mess togs without authorization...

There are times when judgement is called upon. I remember being a Junior officer in Petawawa and cramming on my Military Law course with a colleague. In the Mess were two generals, one the Base CO, the other visiting. Over a period of time their discussion became quite heated and I pointed out to my friend the section in my book that said that 'any officers involved in a fray, quarrel, or disorder...' could be placed under arrest by any other officer. He declined.

[Ed Storey]

For those who continue to wear their CF/DEU Uniform to military events long after retirement or those who are considering to continue this practice. Stop, take a good look at what Clive wrote, go and hang your old uniform in the closest and let it shrink with the other clothing. Now head out and purchase a nice blazer and flannels. On this legal civilian attire you can festoon it with all of bling acquired from a rewarding military career and wear it with honour to any military event.

[Stan Leschert]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

For those who continue to wear their CF/DEU Uniform to military events long after retirement or those who are considering to continue this practice. Stop, take a good look at what Clive wrote, go and hang your old uniform in the closest and let it shrink with the other clothing. Now head out and purchase a nice blazer and flannels. On this legal civilian attire you can festoon it with all of bling acquired from a rewarding military career and wear it with honour to any military event.

Listen to the smart one.

When I left, everything had to be turned back in.

I now have 3 sets of Legion Uniforms, seasons .... (too much food)

Much prefer it this way.

[Jason Graveline]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

For those who continue to wear their CF/DEU Uniform to military events long after retirement or those who are considering to continue this practice. Stop, take a good look at what Clive wrote, go and hang your old uniform in the closest and let it shrink with the other clothing. Now head out and purchase a nice blazer and flannels. On this legal civilian attire you can festoon it with all of bling acquired from a rewarding military career and wear it with honour to any military event.

This (with Wiser's clap for effect).

Or you could join any one (or several) of many service organizations that have a uniform, most of which would welcome a new and enthusiastic member. The RCL, ANAVETS, RCAFA, etc. I've got great mileage out of my RCAFA uniform in the near 2 years that I've been out. And a black suit with a white tuxedo dress shirt, bow tie and miniature medals has done the trick for those rare formal events.

My 2 cents, FWIW.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by servicepub

....
The initial stink was caused by an unknown person attending the dinner wearing a uniform of a Captain, RCN. This idividual had no ribbons and was ubnknown to any of the other guests. When asked to identify himself he admitted that he was an 'admirer' of the Navy and dressed the part in honour of the RCN. The memo that followed was to address that particular transgression but it also caught up a couple of retired Navy types in Mess Dress who had not obtained DHH approval.
....

So if the problem is one fashion-statement, why the H3LL is the rest of the country suffering? Sounds like a very cowardly way of administering discipline. The bum should have been frog marched out to the street on the balls of his feet.

[Ed Storey]

Terry, take a look at some of the other comments and you will see why these types of situations happen. He was probably 'just having fun'....

[motto (RIP)]

Things can get a little confusing for a civvy like myself.
The first time I went to Normandy I was mightily impressed with the number of people, re-enactors, vehicle crew etc that were wearing uniforms. This was not done in Australia.
Our ferry load of HMVs from Portsmouth pulled up on the side of the road just out of Cherbourg and I took one of those trick dog leads for a walk that has a wire down it and looks like you're walking an invisible dog.
I worked my way along the vehicles, on occasions making it look like the dog was peeing on wheels to get a reaction from onlookers.
At the head of the convoy was a group of fellows dressed as MPs. One was a plump jolly fellow who played along pretending to make the dog beg. Standing nearby was a haughty looking type dressed as an officer with beautifully polished, calf length boots. I walked over and without even thinking about it made it look as though the dog was peeing on his boot. I will never forget the withering look he gave me. I thought 'that blokes got no sense of humour at all!' and went on my way.
It was some time later that I realised the group at the head of the convoy were not re-enactors but French regular army.
Oh well, I'd done my bit for Anglo French relations. They had no way of knowing I was an Aussie.

David

[Lynn Eades]

David,While talking about French officers; There is a story about British army officers wearing red coats, so that when an officer was wounded, the troops couldn't see the blood, and followed confidently. The story goes on to tell about why French officers wear brown trousers....

[motto (RIP)]

Better duck for cover there Lynn, Canadians come in two brands and some may lack humour.

Dave

[Richard Farrant]

Dave,
Your Normandy anecdote has reminded me of being there for the D-Day tour in 2004. Myself and an Aussie friend were in Courselles looking for a supermarket, no one to ask when I spotted two men in dark uniforms, beeches and riding boots, no hats. I said they will know, Gendarme motorcyclists ............. I went up and spoke in halted English with my question ......... the reply from one of them was "Sorry bud, we only just arrived here this week" ..... I then spotted the RCMP flash on his shoulder

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Robert Morrison asked me to copy & paste the text below from the Vancouver Artillery Association & RUSI Vancouver Members newsletter:

Royal Canadian Navy vets can’t wear uniforms without permission
By: Marco Chown Oved Staff Reporter, Published on Thu Jun 20 2013

Navy veterans will not be able to wear their uniforms at memorials and special events after the National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa issued a new nation-wide standing order last week.

[photo caption: Royal Canadian Navy Vice-Admiral Paul Maddison addresses a gala dinner in May in Ottawa, where some senior officers later complained that retired officers had worn their formal uniforms, or mess kits.]

Navy veterans will not be able to wear their uniforms at memorials and special events after the National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa issued a new nationwide standing order last week.
According to the order, all former service people in the Royal Canadian Navy must request permission in writing before wearing their uniforms at any event, including parades, war memorial celebrations and other formal functions. “Permission for former service members to wear uniforms is limited and revocable,” according to the five-page order dated June 13 obtained by the Star. “Requests by former RCN service members to wear uniforms, including mess dress, will be considered on a case-by-case basis. Such approval shall be limited to exceptional circumstances where the wearing of the uniform is necessary and will favourably contribute to the RCN.”

The order has caused an out roar among military veterans on social media. “F--- that,” wrote one Royal Canadian Air Force veteran on Facebook. “Wore mine getting married, even told the Navy while stuck with them ‘C’mon get me for wearing it.’ ” New Democrat defence critic Jack Harris (St. John’s East) called the order “outrageous and insulting.” “Canada’s veterans have bravely served this country and wear their uniforms with pride at ceremonies commemorating their service,” said Harris. “It shows an absolute lack of respect for this service to tell veterans that they now need to ask permission to wear their uniforms and show their pride for having served this country.”

The order seems to reinforce one already on the books, which requires veterans to get permission before wearing their uniforms. According to an FAQ on the Directorate of History and Heritage section of the National Defence and Canadian Forces website, vets are required to get permission before wearing their uniforms and are encouraged to wear only their medals and cap with civilian dress. That rule was routinely ignored during special occasions, such as Remembrance Day ceremonies and parades, said Michael Blais, the founder and president of Canadian Veterans Advocacy. But the new order may cast the net too wide and result in thousands of individual requests to wear uniforms during memorials, said the retired sergeant from the Royal Canadian Regiment. “It’s just ludicrous,” he said. “All the veterans of the Canadian navy in theory have to ask permission now from (Vice)-Admiral (Paul) Maddison in order to wear their beret on Remembrance Day.” The order was issued after senior naval officers complained that retired officers wore their formal uniforms, or mess kits, at a gala dinner held to commemorate the Battle of the Atlantic at the Canadian War Museum in early May.

“The mess kit is a formal uniform of active service members and is not to be worn after retirement,” wrote a senior naval officer in an email to a gala organizer. “This is clearly against Queen’s Regulations and Orders and cannot be condoned,” he wrote in the email obtained by the Star. Distinguishing between active and retired members is essential, the order states, because active members “remain sworn to unlimited liability if ordered into harm’s way, and therefore must be clearly recognizable as such.”

While most people who serve in the Canadian Forces return their uniforms when they leave active service, officers who purchase their own mess kits are allowed to keep them, said Deanna Simrite, secretary treasurer at Anavets Dominion Command. The rule prohibiting retired officers from wearing their uniform is intended to distinguish between those who retain contemporary mess kits and their active-duty counterparts with identical uniforms, she said.
“When you’re wearing a World War II navy uniform, no one is confusing you with a currently serving officer,” she said. “We don’t have a problem with that and I don’t think the (navy) has a problem with that.” Her organization has written to the Department of Defence suggesting that it issue a clarification.

“Maybe you should put out a very clear directive on where and what is appropriate for veterans to wear. And that would be a lot easier. I’m sure the navy doesn’t want to deal with a whole bunch of requests to wear old naval caps to Remembrance Day.”

The RCN held its change of command ceremony Thursday without notifying the media and did not return calls for comment on the order.

You have to wonder if they even have the authority to order this. I can see it applying to retirees wearing a current order of dress but if one is wearing a uniform that has been declared obsolete and removed from the ‘official’ orders of dress they shouldn’t have any control of it.