Penguin Mkll

[David Dunlop]

Ed.

I was taking another look at that photo you posted of Rob's Penguin in service and realized the chap on the stretcher was being loaded into the vehicle via what appears to be the right front window.

Rob's photos clearly show a rear entrance, as well as one on each side, so now I am curious as to how the interior of these ambulance Penguins were set up. Was it just for two stretcher casualties one per sponson with crew access in the middle, or could a third stretcher be loaded via the back, over top of the engine area behind the driver?

The only other thing I can think of is the racoons wouldn't let the MO load the poor chap in the back door.

David

[derk derin]

Well,I just got back from Gimli and spotted quite a few Bombardiers and pulled into one yard,introduced myself and told him about your search for spare rims and he showed me the bombardier machines he had in the yard and let me take pictures of the bogie wheels and track systems.The wheel rims are a one piece disk type rim where I think your rims are a two piece bolt together rim.They also have a single row of wheels where your Penguin has two rows?Anyway,a nice day to go for a drive and look at vehicles.
Derk.

[derk derin]

Another one,also a couple of pictures of one of the wheels he had in the shop to show the size of the shaft for the bearings.

[derk derin]

This one is the one he is fixing up for himself.

[derk derin]

The other models were 1950's era where this one is a newer model (1960's).The last picture is of the size of tire on the spare wheel & rim he had in the shop.4.50x16.
Derk

[rob love]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Ed.

I was taking another look at that photo you posted of Rob's Penguin in service and realized the chap on the stretcher was being loaded into the vehicle via what appears to be the right front window.

Rob's photos clearly show a rear entrance, as well as one on each side, so now I am curious as to how the interior of these ambulance Penguins were set up. Was it just for two stretcher casualties one per sponson with crew access in the middle, or could a third stretcher be loaded via the back, over top of the engine area behind the driver?

The only other thing I can think of is the racoons wouldn't let the MO load the poor chap in the back door.

David

David
Both front windows open to allow stretchers to be put in. At this time I believe it holds four stretchers....2 on each side one atop the other.

That back door is actually the engine bay. The cover, oil cooler and radiator are loose in the cab at present. I don't think you would be doing a casualty any favors loading him into that location.

It looks like they are actually loading one of the 200 pound toboggans with the casualty on it. I believe the racks are meant for the normal stretchers, but will confirm it once I get the hull cleaned up and some of the brackets back in their positions.

[rob love]

Derk
Thanks for taking the time to check things out up there in fisherman country. The rims do appear to be the type that could be used with the Penguin, except as you noted the penguin rims are the bolt together type. This may have been to allow for the insert of the run flats. The tire size you show is correct for the Penguin as well: 4.50X16. One forum was suggesting that 16" hide-a-spares from the wrecking yards could be used. I may experiment with this, since those can be had very cheaply. If I can get them off the car rims, they may fit onto the bolt together rims. We'll see.

Tracks were dropped off today. Since we are heading out to the MVPA convention for the week, they will have to wait for installation.

[BCA]

A quick check of the parts book for the Penguin Mark 3, titled CV-1, published Dec.1949 shows a lot of engine parts with G103/Stuart M5A1 part numbers and interestingly the differential is G166/T16. Many of the transmission parts are G122/Staghound or G103/M5A1 Stuart so even some G749 Hydramatic parts will interchange.
There is no mention of earlier models or other manuals for the earlier models of the Penguin. ........ Brian

[motto]

The Cadillac V8 side valve engines were also available as twin pack and quad pack close coupled units for industrial and marine applications. I was unaware of this until not so long back on one of the forums somebody posted a wartime advertisement extolling the virtues of these engines and the useful part they were playing in the defeat of the Axis.
Many years ago the airline I worked for had V8 Caddi's powering ground equipment. They were said to come from landing craft. I always loved to hear them burst into life.
According to Wikipedia, Ward's listed the V8 L head Cadillac as being one of the ten best engines of the 20th century. I can well believe it.
Good luck with your restoration Rob, anything powered by these engines has got to be a joy.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Rob,

Great to hear this vehicle has found a new home! I really like this type of vehicle, that's why a wrote a web page on the Canadian Armoured Snowmobile back in 2002. The website is gone, luckily a copy was captured by the Internet Archive - see http://web.archive.org/web/200910261...nowmobile.html

But you're not going to try to buy a V8 Caddilac engine in the UK, are you? I'd look around in Canada or south of the border, once you start your search I am sure you will find them quite easily on your side of the pond.

See http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15 for some more background on this vehicle or search the forum for "Penguin"

Hanno

[David Herbert]

Hanno,

Thank you for posting those links. Like you I have always liked the Canadian Armoured Snowmobile but as there seemed to be none left there was little point aspiring to one so I never studied them. I have just spent a couple of hours reading through your links and the links in them and have a much better picture.

I presume that "Penguin no8" is a "Snowmobile Penguin Mk1", Rob's is definately a Mk2, but I can not find a photo of a Mk3 other than the ones that are actually Mk2s wrongly described. Has anyone got a photo of a Mk3 that is definately a Mk3 ?

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Another Muskox era vehicle based on the same running gear is this one. It was for sale in Quebec 30 odd years ago and went west. What is it and what became of it?

[Ed Storey]

That is a Penguin Mk I.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Damn good find with the Penguin! If you don't find suitable postwar roadwheels and tracks, you can be excused for swapping in Bombardier parts. They are still Canadian and evidently more numerous.

As for raccoons, they are devious little critters. One neighbour called them urban terrorists. I live in prime raccoon habitat, and for a while was unwittingly feeding them with my garbage cans. When I realized how they were getting into the locking lids, I made a sturdy 3'x6' wood and steel lean-to shed. No more knocked over garbage, but the kitts learned where to go. For years I kept seeing moms and little ones prowling my yard. Then I got a big enough dog to crap landmines and bark ferociously at intruders.

Skunks on the other hand have bad eyesight. They too are scavengers, but not as clever. I had one fall into a basement window well. He was too confused to climb and out. So a very large lady from the Human Society came with a big net on a stick. The skunk scampered away to the back hedge, to bring his love and cuteness to another homeowner.

[Ed Storey]

Back in the 90s I had an article published in Wheels and Tracks Magazine based on the vehicle trials reports that had been written during Exercise Eskimo which was held in northern Saskatchewan in the spring of 1945.

Here is what I reported at that time on the Canadian Armoured Snowmobile Mk I.

SNOWMOBILE, ARMOURED CANADIAN MK I

The oversnow performance of this vehicle was good except for the high power loss when traversing loosely packed snow. This slowed the vehicle down to such an extent that much of its effectiveness as a speedy reconnaissance vehicle was lost. It is considered that much of this could be overcome by providing track shoes that would ride on top of the snow rather than cutting through it. A track shoe similar to that on the Cargo Carrier M29 might be suitable, as this vehicle performed better than the snowmobile on loosely packed snow. The general track design of the Snowmobile should be retained however, as it gave very little trouble.

On one occasion the snowmobile was forded across a river approximately 1 metre deep at a temperature of -26C. No preliminary precautions were taken and no subsequent mechanical trouble was encountered.

A number of minor difficulties were experienced with the Snowmobile but these were to be expected in a new production vehicle. Most of these had been corrected in production and modification instructions had been issued to take care of vehicles already produced.


This vehicle was used as a substitute for light reconnaissance cars, armoured cars and a portion of carriers, universal. It was unsuitable for the purposes

intended for the following reasons:

a. In lieu of a light reconnaissance car because of:

(1) Limited Capacity. It carried a crew of only two, while three were required, and there was no space for personal equipment that was carried in winter.

(2) Limited Observation and Protection. All round vision was possible only by exposure of the crew commander's head and shoulders to both the elements and enemy observation and fire. It was considered that a turret or similar substitute was required.

(3) Restricted Performance in Deep Snow. The speed and mobility of the Snowmobile were somewhat restricted in deep snow. Since speed and mobility are the essential characteristics of the light recce car, it is considered that the snowmobile is unsuitable. If the track pressure could be reduced, it is thought that adequate performance would result. This might be accomplished by the use of lighter armour.

b. In lieu of armoured cars because of:

(1) Limited Armament. As armoured cars mount a light anti-tank gun, a medium machine gun and a light machine gun as well as a smoke discharger, it is assumed that a similar replacement vehicle should be similarly equipped. The Snowmobile was capable of mounting one LMG only.

(2) Limited Capacity. It should be capable of carrying a crew of three plus additional kit.

(3) Limited Observation. Commanders and gunners must have unrestricted vision. This would not be possible in the snowmobile without undue exposure to observation and small arms fire, as well as to the elements. It is thought that a heated turret with a copula of shatterproof material is required.

c. In lieu of Carrier Universal because of:

(1) Limited Capacity. It should be capable of carrying a crew of three plus additional equipment.

The Artillery stated that the Snowmobile, was found inadequate to accommodate personnel and equipment of the forward observation officer and party.

The Snowmobile could tow the 40mm Bofors, except around short turns, but the present vehicle did not have sufficient cargo carrying capacity.

Later in the Exercise, although not designed for the task, a Snowmobile was used for towing a gun into position away from roads. Since the towing hook on the Snowmobile was set too low, the trail of the gun dug into the ground on inclines.

The Signals recommended that the oversnow vehicles be heated. They also reported that the vehicle lacked in load and personnel carrying capacity and it had a very high fuel consumption.

The Medical Corps reported that there was no room inside the Armoured Snowmobile to accommodate stretcher cases. One stretcher might be lashed to the top, but the fine snow thrown by the tracks would cover the patient and chill him. It was therefore impractical for routine evacuation but may be employed to evacuate an occasional casualty in a trailer or attach a train of toboggans with casualties.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

That is a Penguin Mk I.

I thought that might be the case. There are photos of them and they do look like a more expediant version.

Re the mk3 version, I was talking to Brian Asbury and he mentioned that his Mk3 manual shows pretty much the same bodywork as the mk2. I will discuss with Brian tomorrow about possibly getting a copy of his mk3 manual.

Some questions I have to wonder about are:
Were the mark ones produced from scratch or from armoured snowmobiles.
What quantity of mk1, 2 and 3?
What quantity of the armoured snowmobile were consumed making penguins? All of them?
Were the mk3 penguins made from snowmobiles or made from scratch?

I almost picked up a beautiful no19 set today for my penguin, but I let another fellow at the show buy it for his mk2 carrier.

[Ed Storey]

I was under the impression that Canadian Armoured Snowmobile Mk Is were converted into Penguin Mk Is. If this was the case, not all of the Armoured Snowmobiles were converted at the same time as here is an image from Exercise Musk Ox showing both vehicles in use.



I have both the Penguin Mk II and Mk III recorded as having been manufactured by Canadian Arsenals Limited. I do not have production figures but again my records indicate that both vehicles had an ambulance version.

Here is an image of a Penguin Mk II.

[David Herbert]

Nice picture of a Penguin Mk II.

Interesting that the tires are treaded - I thought that they were smooth and were made specially for this application. but it would seem that 4.50 x 16 was a size used on ordinary vehicles so might still be available if you are not too fussy about the tread. Was this size not used on the front of small 1950s farm tractors? Ply rating might be an issue but there are a lot of wheels holding up a not very heavy vehicle and if they were foam filled I can't see a problem.

It really is worth reading through Hanno's link to the debate about these machines that happened twelve years ago. I am getting into these Penguins now: more impressive, rare and robust than a Weasel, no real weaknesses, big enough to take your friends for a ride, fun to drive, transportable to shows, could even be handy if it snows. There must be more hidden away.

David

[David Herbert]

Looking more closely at the photos it seems that the ambulance Penguin II had its outer front windows hinged so that they open sideways toward the centre of the vehicle but on the non ambulance version all three front windows just open upwards. A handy recognition point. I wonder why they didn't put stretcher hatches in the back, either side of the radiator grille, it looks like there was enough room but maybe the fuel tanks are in the rear corners or something like that.

David

[Robin Craig]

I hate racoons, in one spring we had one excavator two Land Rovers and a pontoon boat nailed. About $7,000 worth of damage in all. I hate them.

As Chris pointed out we at work often have sea cans coming, next is due to arrive 8th August.

I know of another one coming this year, that is the last that I know about currently.

I love the history Rob, love the fact that people like Ed have all the photos to tie it all together.

Was track tension soley based on air pressure over all the tyres?

R

[David Dunlop]

Does anyone know the actual production numbers for the original armoured snowmobile, how many stayed in Canada, how many went elsewhere and was the Penguin solely a Canadian idea/conversion?

It would be interesting to see an armoured snowmobile sitting next to a Weasel. The one in Ed's photo looks rather low, lean and mean!

David

[David Dunlop]

Was down at the local dog park this morning so the little guy could have a squirt and spotted a pair of racoons heading across the river. Made me think of your Penguin Project, Rob, and I got curious about any new developments.


David

[rob love]

It is -30 outside right now, so no new developments. It will sit for a year or three while I gather information and leads.

As an aside, I have bought a bunch of sheds from the base here, including a 40X100 foot shed with 21 foot ceiling. I only work on days that are warmer than -15, and that has not been a while lot of days, let me assure you. Once re-assembled here either this summer or next, it should provide indoor storage for all my toys.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

... including a 40X100 foot shed with 100 foot ceilings.

Turn it on its side and you wouuld have a 100x100 shed with 40' ceiling - much better use of space.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Turn it on its side and you wouuld have a 100x100 shed with 40' ceiling - much better use of space.

Now edited to read 21 foot ceilings. Still high enough to make you respect the scaffolding while un-doing roof panels.

[Marc Montgomery]

In one of the old Convoy magazines, there was a couple pages on the Penguin, including photos etc of one sitting in a field up for auction (several years ago)...maybe that was the one you now have Rob?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

In one of the old Convoy magazines, there was a couple pages on the Penguin, including photos etc of one sitting in a field up for auction (several years ago)...maybe that was the one you now have Rob?

Mine came from Sean from Alberta (snowtractor in this site) who got it from BC. I don't know anything about the one in the convoy magazines.

[Marc Montgomery]

might be the same.....it was from out west ..maybe someone could check the Convoy back issues ? and if its not the same one...I wonder what became of that one? hate to think such a rare beast might be gone for good.

[Joe Lorenzino]

I finally got around to hauling the Penguin Mk3 home last Sunday.
I had spoken for it a few years ago, and had agreed to a trade deal, but was reluctant to pick it up before completing work on one of the trade items. On May 31, the previous owner came and picked up a Lincoln Zephyr V12 that was part of the deal, and I was going to get the Penguin, fittingly, on Canada Day. It was a little too soggy then, so a recovery mission was mounted last Sunday.

It is a Mk3. serial #77, dated 1949. Not running, but with new track belts. Has a SK licence still attached from 1968. Previous owner got it from a ranch on the edge of the Cypress Hills.

I would really like to get a copy of the parts book, or any other manuals that might be out there.

Have pictures, but haven't got them off the camera yet.

[jdmcm]

Hey Rob, I have a Cadillac flathead motor, in pieces, very nice shape, real tank block, lots of spares, heads, cranks etc. that I picked up as a spare for my Stuart. When I bought the Stuart the seller assured me the crated engines were perfect and ready to go...guess what....don't always believe what you hear. After complete rebuilds on the crated engines, I have enough spares to keep me going. Anyway you are welcome to the spare motor and parts if you can make it work for your project.

John