Photos needed. Shed full of S**t Auction

[Brett Nicholls]

Hi Guy's,

Lynn - I think the terms "Fixed Or Repaired Daily" come to mind but I have to be honest - Hi everyone. My Name is Brett and I own a Ford.. Lol but yes I admit I have never seen a Ford front cross member cracked from wear and tear.

Mike - On a serious note you mention the proto types had the Winch sitting forward Hence the spacers on the front bumper and on the Later installations the Bar sat back hence the removal of one of the Jeeps bars from the Grille. Note the second AWM photo, which I posted, and that particular Jeep has neither the bar removed or the spacers on the front bar. Strange - maybe another slight change to installation?.

Tony Smith - I admit....it was Ian all along - I then got Jealous and had to buy my own from the Dubbo Museum auction

Regards,
Brett.

[Mike Cecil]

Not sure the bar is complete: depends where it is cut. I gather only the lower half of the bar got in the way.

You'll also note that the production vehicle has the winch mounted more towards the centre, hence the long winding arm with a bearing mount.

The image of the one sold at auction has a very stout looking winding axle/arm: much thicker then the ones shown on the period images. Is it genuine or a later addition?

Mike C

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi all,

Thanks everyone for their info and thoughts. It is a very interesting part of the aussie jeeps history!

Re weight capability of the winch, in the photos supplied by Mike Kelly in the thread Tony Smith linked to (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=19724) , on the winch Drum itself (as seen in the photo with the handle in the series of 3 Mike posted), the drum reads-
Dawn XXXXX (WINCH?) Australia (on the outer ring of text)
and
2 Ton All Steel (on the inner ring of text)

Tony Smith, yes it is me who has your winch now (sitting safely in the shed awaiting use!). Those pics you posted are of the winch I bought, but as can be seen in the pics of the modification kit and Tony Wheelers handle, the one from your/my winch has been very modified!- hence i was hoping to see some details of the one from Howards sale for more info on the handle!

Mike, thanks for the additional info on the kit. The MGO was the primary source, but coupled with a few other bibs and bobs i'd seen and people had told me. I often wonder how many jeeps got fitted also (hadnt seen any in the ledgers with this noted unlike other kit additions recorded for some vehicles) and wonder how many people thought the kit was a farmers mod or welded a bar back in their grill (from what i have gathered, it was the whole bar to be taken out). Can you shed any other light on areas i could follow or look in to find more info on this kit? Are the details for CD-E8745 available somewhere?


The pic above of the multi coloured winch is the one Tony Smith sold me a few years back- the extended winding arm/axle is a home done thing i believe. Im not sure (havent dug deep enough) if it is a ww2 winch with military paint on it as i havent checked back through the layers of paint, but it did match the details id seen of the army installed ones.

Cheers all,
Ian.

[Mike Cecil]

Ian,

I'm sorry to say you have all the info I have on that Contract Demand (CD) in this thread, as you'll see when Volume 1 of Lloyd White's new book on the MB comes out later this year (I wrote the Australian chapter). There wasn't enough solid info to warrant much more than a paragraph or two on the Dawn winch mod, plus some liberal quoting from the MGO Memorandum, and a single image (the 9th Div jeep coming ashore).

I have to wonder if the CD was the only one (especially given the difficulty with the supply of the specified cable) and therefore the total number of which kits provided to Army, given images (and survivors) are so rare. Being supplied as a field mod kit, they could have been fitted to any jeep at field workshop level, (or simply left on the shelf), hence I'm not at all surprised that there are no annotations in the registration ledgers.

Mike C

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for that. I will keep digging then into it (both the Contract Demand side and any other avenue) and see what i can find on the kit. I agree with you though, its unlikely many of those 230 produced you quoted were fitted and thus the low survival rate and also unlikely there was another CD for the winch kit (also hence why i was so keen to see the pics from the one Howards auction sold!).

Out of curiosity, if you dont mind, where did you find info on the problem with the cable size?

Cheers,
Ian.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

I have to wonder if the CD was the only one (especially given the difficulty with the supply of the specified cable).

There's certainly a shortage of cable on this 9th Div jeep winch, looks like the equivalent of one full layer on the drum, which works out to a little over 20' length. However it's definitely 3/8" cable, as opposed to 7/16" on Tony's old winch and also my Dawn No.5 winch.

dawn-1 - Copy (2).jpg

jeep0041 - Copy.jpg

From this we might infer limited stock of 3/8" cable which was rationed, and no suitable alternative available. Why else would you shorten the cable so drastically from the 120' spec, which is comparable to 125' CMP spec? You could still use the winch effectively by extending the cable with rope as req'd and winding in 20' at a time. You don't need much rope strength to pull a jeep slowly through mud, and with this winch I mean EXCRUCIATINGLY slowly! Even up a 45 degree incline you only need 1/2 ton force which would only require the rope to be doubled up.

Yes it's highly speculative but there must be a reason for shortening the cable so drastically, and there must also be a reason why so few jeeps had what strikes me as an extraordinarily useful piece of kit, notwithstanding slow operation. Nowadays we have electric front mount winches and no one goes off-road without one, and judging by all the wartime pics of jeeps being towed or pushed through bogs there was plainly a need for this mod. Indeed the very existence of this mod tells us that. It could even be operated under water to ford deep creeks and rivers, rather than waiting hours for a truck to come along. I know I'd be a lot happier going bush with one of these on the front, esp. in jungle terrain.

Therefore I suspect you're right Mike, all the evidence points to this mod being scotched after the first order due to lack of cable, as there was still a whole year of war to go. I'd be interested to see a blow up of the 9th Div jeep coming ashore, it too looks short on cable to me, and may even have non-spec cable, ie. much thicker.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Tony,

Sounds logical to me!

Heres a bigger version and you seem to be right (eagle eyed!), not much cable.



Cheers,
Ian.

[Richard Farrant]

Tony and Ian,
Another reason for not having many layers of rope on the drum is due to "effort required". Maybe experience told them of the usual length of pull required, the more unused rope on the drum, the more effort required to wind the handle.
Each layer will increase the load on the operator, the only other option is to use some thing like a Trewhella rope grab, to clamp on the rope down its length in order to start on bottom layer.

Of course if shortage of steel wire rope then it could be the real reason.

I spent a good deal of time repair and testing all kinds of winches for the army from hand operated winches, recovery vehicles through to 30 ton winches on Caterpillars. Each layer on the drum on a vehicle winch, reduces its pulling power before the cut out trips in.

regards, Richard