Canvas doors

[Keith Webb]

In the thread about the Sunshine Roof Tony Wheeler brings up the subject of the removable canvas doors on Australian CMPs, I thought it might be interesting to make up a list of types which used these, usually late production vehicles.
Here's an incomplete list:
134" types such as tippers, 400 gallon tankers, the Ford ambulance...

158" types, many post 1944

160" types, Tankers

101" types, the CGT No9 only two of which were delivered.

Does anyone know why the 15cwt types were not modified this way? There are a few late production F15As around with standard steel doors.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

134" types such as tippers, 400 gallon tankers, the Ford ambulance...

What about this one Keith? I had assumed it was a tanker initially, but no tanker I've seen has a full length support structure like that seen here. It bears some resemblance to the Derrick/Engineers Lorry body, and the rear chassis has been extended in the usual manner seen on many Australian F60L tray trucks, but by a much lesser amount, which happens to be the required amount to install a spare wheel carrier. This is the only F60S I've come across with the chassis extension, so I'm wondering if that was the purpose, given that the Derrick/Engineers Lorry carries the spare wheel in the body. However this F60S lacks a PTO for the winch, so I'm rather confused as to it's identity! ARN is 208140 and I've been meaning to ask Mike if he has any record.

[Keith Webb]

Interesting as the main purpose of the chassis extension on the long wheelbase CMPs was to help with the turning circle with a trailer.
The obvious question is whether the structure on the back is original.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

158" types, many post 1944

Were there really so many Keith? In my own travels I've seen very few, in fact at present I can only bring to mind four examples, three C60L and one F60L. As opposed to the ubiquitous late production 60S, of which I can bring to mind dozens and dozens, particularly Fords.

Interestingly though I can bring to mind several late production F60L with coach built cabs, and it only now occurs to me there may be a tie in here with our late production FGT chassis overhead cranes of recent discussion, which all have a fabricated rear cab and roof, and all but one have a fabricated windscreen frame. It's as if there was a shortage of these panels late in the war, or perhaps they were built post war...? Do we have any explanation for the coach built cabs? If so it may apply to the FGT/F22 vehicles under discussion as well.

[Keith Webb]

You're right, when I think about it, it was more the medium wheelbase types which ties in with Mike's comment about specialist CMPs which were being buit by that stage.
Will have to go through my pics in more detail to see which ones I have found.
The coach built cabs are quite interesting, possibly due to one or a series of post-war contracts for large civvy fleets. The PMG coach built twin cabs are an interesting example of that.
Shame we didn't do more of the fabulous conversions done by other countries, notably the Dutch.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Does anyone know why the 15cwt types were not modified this way? There are a few late production F15As around with standard steel doors.

Keith, we should probably define early and late production so we're all on the same page, particularly as it's peculiar to Australia. In my mind it's defined by the chassis, specifically steering ends and steering box. The delineation between early and late production is sharp - all Australian CMPs prior to '44 had small steering ends and steering box, then suddenly all Australian CMPs had large steering ends and steering box, with the sole exception of the 15 cwt (disregarding the Australian ambo which was anomalous in several respects).

For some reason the switch to large steering ends and steering box was simultaneously and universally accompanied by cab modification, specifically removable canvas doors. We find no early production chassis with canvas doors, and no late production chassis with steel doors, with the sole exception once again of the 15 cwt.

Why this should be so is unclear, but what IS clear is that canvas doors were only fitted to heavy duty vehicles, and steel doors were only fitted to light duty vehicles. If we accept that as a valid principle then it makes perfect sense, because the 15 cwt was definitely not intended for heavy duty. In fact having driven one on the road now I'm not even sure it was intended to leave the base!

[Mike Cecil]

RE canvas doors:

See my last post under 'Blitz Sun Roof'.

Mike C

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Tony,

ARN is 208140 and I've been meaning to ask Mike if he has any record

With the number of 208140, it (i believe) falls into the RAAF registration number range. This might account for the strange rear you have found as it seems from the few pictures ive seen of vehicles, the RAAF did modify things to suit their individual purposes on a case by case basis?

Good luck finding the RAAF ledgers. Ive been told they went 'missing' along time ago when the lent them to someone and the were never returned. Foolishly, it seems the didnt keep track of who they lent them to.

Id be happy to be proved wrong on that one!

Cheers,
Ian.

[Mike Cecil]

Tony: missed your query first time around, but picked it up in Ian's post. 208140 is indeed within the registration block issued to the RAAF. The number was issued to a 'Truck, Heavy, Wireless/Telegraphy', a Ford F60S, taken on charge 14 November 1944, and disposed of on 7 August 1956.

To clarify Ian's comments, the RAAF vehicle registers were originally located at RAAF Support Command, Logistics Management Unit, St Kilda Road, Melbourne. They were relocated to the RAAF Museum in the mid-1990s, but were recalled by the Support Command in the late 1990s, against the wishes of the RAAF Museum staff. Soon after, they went missing and have not been seen since. The RAAF Museum librarian was extremely upset by their loss. As far as I am aware from speaking with her, there is no record of them having been 'lent' to anyone, and this is the first I've heard of that: the more likely scenario is they were 'round filed' during a clean-up/move: the unit certainly didn't appreciate what they were holding when I accessed them in the late 1980s and early 1990s, until I informed them of their historical value.

In the mid-1990s, I was instrumental in having them moved to the RAAF Museum (I actually recommended they be forwarded to the AWM, to be held along with the Army registers). I still have the correspondence.

Fortunately, I made copious notes from the registers when I had access. Those records were then transcribed to my registrations database: a HUGE and time-consuming job!

Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Thanks Ian and Mike, I forgot to mention it was a RAAF vehicle. It's one I saved from the scrappy in Drouin last year, which I subsequently managed to ID from a 40 year old photo taken by Keith in Noojee, about 50 km away. Interesting to find it was a Wireless truck, do we have any pics of these?



Tragic to lose the RAAF vehicle registers after they'd actually been found and placed in safe hands. They should never have been relinquished back to dickhead staffers at Vic Barracks where they'd be virtually guaranteed to wind up lost or round filed. Champion effort by you Mike to transcribe the records, that would have been a herculean task.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

To clarify Ian's comments, the RAAF vehicle registers were originally located at RAAF Support Command, Logistics Management Unit, St Kilda Road, Melbourne. They were relocated to the RAAF Museum in the mid-1990s, but were recalled by the Support Command in the late 1990s, against the wishes of the RAAF Museum staff. Soon after, they went missing and have not been seen since. The RAAF Museum librarian was extremely upset by their loss. As far as I am aware from speaking with her, there is no record of them having been 'lent' to anyone, and this is the first I've heard of that: the more likely scenario is they were 'round filed' during a clean-up/move: the unit certainly didn't appreciate what they were holding when I accessed them in the late 1980s and early 1990s, until I informed them of their historical value.

In the mid-1990s, I was instrumental in having them moved to the RAAF Museum (I actually recommended they be forwarded to the AWM, to be held along with the Army registers). I still have the correspondence.

Fortunately, I made copious notes from the registers when I had access. Those records were then transcribed to my registrations database: a HUGE and time-consuming job!

Same sort of thing happened here in Holland, where vehicle registration cards were taken from the Army's archives and were going to be disposed of. Two acquaintances of mine asked if they could have the cards as they were collecting vehicle registration numbers and details. The answer was no, they were to be destroyed.
But they were allowed to copy details. This was in the pre-digital camera days, so they had to sit down and take notes. Sadly, time was lacking to record all vehicle histories.....

My experience with serving military is that anything struck off charge is of no value to them, except when it can be used as a range target

H.

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, Hanno, there are similar tails of the vehicle history cards in Australia: most were binned when the system was computerized. Only the basic registration details remain in the registers in most cases (which are now at the AWM), whereas the history cards recorded most movements of a registered item between units, storage, rebuild, and so on. Alas, mostly gone...

Most vehicle log books went the same way, though I see the most recent round of disposals includes the log book: quite a departure from what happened previously.

The Truck Heavy Wireless/Telegraphy was a composite bodied (wood/Masonite/caneite) van with a rear door and steps. There were a number parked at RAAF Point Cook under the trees lining the main road for many years: Keith, do you have any monochromes of those?

Mike C

[Keith Webb]

Keith, do you have any monochromes of those?

No I don't have any of the vehicles at Point Cook but I do have a pic of a different one, will dig it out.

[Keith Webb]

The remains of the frame looks about the right shape.

[Mike K]

I have a 1944 equipment memorandum, in it the canvas doors are detailed .

The book suggests the doors were a optional thing , it does not mention specific models of CMP's .

The little book belongs to P Growse .. I should return it

I think one of those RAAF wireless vans was sold at the BAndianna museum cleanout, around 15 years ago, it was in faded RAAF livery .... it was very complete . who bought it ?

[Keith Webb]

A. Growse might be more interested in it these days...

That one in the auction is safely in a shed on the Murray these days, one of the lowest mileage CMPs around.

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks, Mike, nice spotting!

MGO Equipment Memorandum No13, Sept 1944 discusses the application/conversion/retrofitting of existing CMP steel doors to canvas doors at workshop level (4th Echelon repairs), due to shortages of maintenance components for steel doors, rather than as a response to climatic conditions.

This is the application of the canvas door kit I mentioned earlier, for retrofitting to existing vehicles (pre-44 pattern cabs). In such cases, the fitting was optional as it depended on factors such as extent of damage to be repaired, availability of spares, desirability of the owner unit to have the doors replaced, etc. While it does not mention specific CMP models, it does state that 'this changeover will occur on 15cwt and 3 ton WD vehicles when undergoing 4th Echelon repairs'. In other words, the vehicle had to be pretty banged up before such a changeover was going to occur, and then only if the damage warranted it.

New production vehicles were equipped with the 44 pattern cab as standard.

MGO EM 13 also contains the jeep winch entry (another thread....), and the autopulse electric fuel pump to overcome vapour locking.

There is an ex-RAAF Heavy Wireless/Telegraphy CMP truck done up as a 'field cash office' at the Pay Corps Museum at Watsonia Barracks: such a shame it is not at the RAAF Museum done up as what it actually is! (The Pay Corps Museum knows, but.....)

I'm sure Alan would welcome the return of the booklet to the Growse Family Military Library!!

Mike C

[Matt Austin]

G'day folks,

If I may stumble in here; I wonder if the rationale for CMP canvas doors is the same with my International K5, as pictured? I wonder if I'm safe to assume that it fell into the category of "15cwt and 3 ton WD vehicles when undergoing 4th Echelon repairs"? I know that in other areas of military history, one should never assume, and I guess the same is true with these vehicles?!

Mine also has a canvas roof, and I haven't been able to find any information about the use thereof.

Cheers,
Matt

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Matt Austin

G'day folks,

If I may stumble in here; I wonder if the rationale for CMP canvas doors is the same with my International K5, as pictured? Mine also has a canvas roof, and I haven't been able to find any information about the use thereof.

Cheers,
Matt

They were a tropical mod so they could be removed for better ventilation so that wouldn't apply to the Inter. The canvas 'Sunshine' roof is also on many 15cwt CMPs, as Mike C has mentioned previously.