How To: C15a Wire-3 restoration

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jordan

What ever you do DO NOT use Por 15 on clean smooth steel it will not stick in the long run, it will peal.

Reason I mention this is that your photos show major areas of the frame that look to have good paint which will mean areas of smooth steel.

When I restored my Pattern 12 some years ago I used Por 15 with their metal cleaner and metal etch. Everything is fine on rusted areas or areas which were uniformly roughened with sand blasting or grinding which Por 15 was applied.

But on areas that were smooth because of being new steel or areas where the paint had protected the steel. The Por 15 has pealed off. I discovered this recently when working on the Pattern 12 doing it's nose change. Now I have areas where the bare steel is exposed. In some areas this is nothing to repair in other it is going to be a real pain.

Yes I am still using Por 15 on projects but only in locations that when cleaned and ready for paint actually feel rough to the touch. Which really leaves a problem on finished surfaces like sheet metal, who do you blend areas from Por 15 to regular primer or PORs Tie Coat Primer.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jordan

Phil is right on new cold rolled sheet metal it willnot adhere properly.

The solution as he pointed out is to roughen the sheet metal surface with small grit sandblasting. The other solution is to use sheet metal with a satin (acid etched) coating from the factory.

I have repaired POR 15 by grinding with a flap disc at 140 grit..... etched....POR two coats and used the tie coat ( all by brush)....... over a year so far no deterioration and not noticable with the two coats of OD.

One question....... are you taking the frame off the axles or blasting the whole assembly as a total unit...?

Cheers

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks for the info and tips guys.

I was just over to see how the frame and cab floor came out from sandblasting. The Por15 should have no trouble at all sticking. The metal feels just like 100 grit sandpaper.

Bob, I left the axels on the frame for now. Once I get it back and painted I will be taking them apart and rebuilding them. I figured I could just do touch ups as needed by hand.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

I even used Por's Metal Etch or Metal Prep and still had problems with pealing. Jordan you are probably on track with your comment that the prepared steel feels like 100 grit sand paper.

Here is an example of the problem I was having this is a lower fender where new steel has been welded in to replace rusted area.



I really should have ground the steel area with 80 grit disk to give the Por 15 something to mechanically grab on to. Guess the rule with Por 15 is if the metal feels smooth it will not stick.

The other side of the getting paint to stick is as Bob mentions you have to use Por's Tie Coat Primer if you want the top coat to stick.

Cheers Phil

[chris vickery]

Why don't you guys ditch the POR15 and stick with epoxy primer?
The stuff is tough as nails and you have to grind, burn or blast it to get it off of properly prepared surfaces.
Metal should always be roughed up no matter the paint or primer product, unless you are using an etching primer.
Epoxy primer needs to be top coated within 24hrs otherwise it needs to be sanded before paint application, BUT, you can cheat a little bit if you epoxy prime first and top coat with regular primer. Most red oxide type primer can be painted over directly without the need for sanding and can be left for quite some time without worrying about it.
The epoxy primer provides the seal of the base metal while the regular primer acts as the bond for the paint.
You can also have epoxy tinted, I usually go red to simulate factory primer- if the paint gets scratched the primer will still protect the metal and looks original.

[Bob Carriere]

Things to remember. POR is not a paint but a coating. It is basically crazy glue with a pigment. It chemically bonds to whatever it is coating BUT if you can provide a mechanical bond that it is really tough. You can paint POR on a sanded section of sheet metal and bend the sheet metal and the coating will not peel. It will loosen its bond of heat is applied....therefore nto good for engine blocks.

On properly degreased cast axles,
T-case, tranny cases that have been sandblasted the outcome is almost like a ceramic finish.

I had rear axles on axles stands....3 feet tall..... the U shape strap the held the axles in place rubbed off the 3 coats of OD paint and the baby blue Tie coat but did not scratch the POR coating on the axle tubes.

POR cures with humidity in the air.... it starts curing the moment you open the can.... that is why they advise never to paint directly from the can as it will continue to get thicker and spoil very fast even after you seal it.

Eastwood now sells a similar "encapsulator" coating which is solvent based and hardens by evaporation of the solvent.... less toxic than POR fumes whcih can harden in the humid linings of your lungs. I have yet to try it.

The two part epozy primers/paint are also very resistant btu have nto palyed with them yet.

No paint will stick to properly cured POR UNLESS you use a self hetch primer
( which of course POR will sell you) and the tried and true TIE Coat which is a sky blue sandable, thick, self leveling primer polyuethane based.

On new steel...sheet metal.... which has been repaired sanded and polished smooth a light pass with a small sandblaster will take care of the adhesion problems.

IMHO.

[charlie fitton]

I'm enjoying all this paint discussion - it's never been a strong point with me.

POR, Epoxy primer, - Where do you buy this stuff?,

Can you paint outside?, and

inasmuch as safety goes - what special precautions?

f

[Grant Bowker]

POR is available at (at least some) Canadian Tire stores. I would expect the epoxy primer at auto body supply houses.
I prefer to apply POR outside (works fastest on warm humid days to speed the chemical reaction setup) but if I must appy indoors I try to be near the basement exhaust fan. The smell travels and penetrates the rest of the house otherwise.
When applied by brush, I don't worry much beyond wearing old clothes and gloves. If you do spatter yourself, wipe it clean with lacquer thinner before it sets or you will be wearing it until either you wear it off or you shed the layer of skin it is bonded to.
The data sheet is at http://qr.absolutecoatings.com/QR-as...Preventive.pdf

IMPORTANT - For spray application wear a good mask to keep both particles and vapours out of your lungs.

[chris vickery]

Well Bob there you have it for one advantage of epoxy primer- it can be painted directly over with no other special coatings, primers etc required.
Once it has hardened, it will not come off. You can bend metal whatever you want. You can hit it with a hammer and it will not chip or flake.
The key with the epoxy is to let it cure sufficiently to not affect the top coat but to top coat it within 24hrs of spraying.
With flat military type paints not such a big deal as the epoxy flashes off quickly but I have seen guys in a rush with gloss finishes where they did not allow it to flash off and the solvents from the epoxy causes the top coat to become patchy-areas that were glossy and areas that were dull.
Two part epoxy is available from a wide range of places that deal in auto body supplies but I think even Napa and Carquest carry it.
I have painted 95% of my projects outside on a nice calm day when its not too hot. Even better if you have one of those tent shelters that you can work in.
All paints are obviously nasty for ones health.
A well fitting cartridge style half mask is recommended at a minimum with the correct filters. I use a 3M brand.
Also, don't be tardy in cleaning up your spray equipment.
Most industrial applications as well as body shops are using epoxy primer systems and even epoxy paints.

[rob love]

I used to be big on the epoxy primers, but have now migrated over to the POR 15. I have sandblast capabilities ( I live in Shilo, so the sand is free), so the metal preparation is not a big deal. I find that if I paint my topcoat onto the POR-15 while it is still tacky, the adhesion is good. It does however make my flat military gillespie paint almost into a semi gloss, but also seems to harden the gillespie paint as well.

I did apply the POR15 onto a M152 fame by a spray gun once, but think I will live with the brush from now on. The final finish by the brush is every bit as nice.

If only they would make POR-15 in military colours.

[Jordan Baker]

Frame got dropped off yesterday. Should be picking up paint tomorrow from the states. Hopefully in 24hrs it will be painted.

For my cab frame. I was going to spray it as well. However I will be going over the metal work as I have a number of the fasteners to weld back on and have to do some other patch work. Should I just spray the entire thing then grind off where I need to weld?

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jordan

....sprayed the phosphorous etching solution yet...?

What fixtures are you welding back on...?

I would weld first..... then clean the welded area and phosphate again before doing the POR as fumes from the welding can be tricky.

Good luck and be safe wear rubber


...gloves!!!

[rob love]

No need for the etching solution if it has been sandblasted.

I ran around town a little while ago trying to find that solution (metal-prep) and of all places it turned out to be at Canadian tire, and at very reasonable prices too. Ours does not carry the POR-15 paint though, but who knows in the future?

[Jordan Baker]

Got everything I needed today. However I'll have to apply it tomorrow. Being awake for 30hrs isn't conducive for applying this stuff.

As for the welding on the cab frame. It's those special nuts that sit in the metal tabs. I have to replace a bunch of them. But it may be a while before I get to it. I though that I may por15 the cab. Then go back and sand the spots with grinder to weld new ones in.

When I apply the metal etch and the degreaser do I just let them dry? Or do I hose it off?

[rob love]

The welded in brackets with a nut inside them is a form of cage nut.

You de-grease, rinse off, then petal-prep, and wash off again. If you have a bit of flash rust, it's no big deal, as that is just more adhesion for the POR-15. But if your metal is freshly sandblasted you do not need any of the degreaser or metal prep, unless you have handled the metal with oily gloves or really sweaty hands.

[Bob Carriere]

...... I was able to salvage a lot of mine by simply replacing the square nut that is inside the cage. Carefully heat up the sheet metal of the cage with a small butane torch, the small one that I use to make "Cream Brule".

Heat up the edge of the cage and pry open with a flat screwdriver.... replace the damaged nut with a new one ..1/4 20tpi or some are 5/16....reheat and fold down the tab......paint as required. Now if the cage is ripped or damaged you will need to grind the old tabs off with a small stone wheel to clean up for the new one.

I also saved a few by cleaning up existing nuts in situ with a good oiled 1/4 in. tap

Nuts are readily available at Fastenal in 100 boxes or individual caged nuts.

Cheers

[Jordan Baker]

Frame all painted. 1 coat of grey and black sprayed. This morning I went back with a brush and did a last coat soaking it into all the seams and doing touch ups.

[Jordan Baker]

Tie Coat has been applied to the frame. Now I just have to wait 24hrs for the stuff to cure. Then bring on the SCC2.

[Bob Carriere]

Nice looking baby blue........

[Jordan Baker]

More progress being made. Chassis is in its final colour of SCC2. Its nice to have a change from all the green.

The cab has also been Por'd. I still have to go back and do some welding and fixing of some the weld nuts. But I figured id paint it so that if I got delayed it wouldn't rust up on me again.

[Jordan Baker]

Last two pictures for now.

Its nice to be starting to bolt some stuff back on.

Lastly, does anyone know what the piece with arrow pointing to was for? Ive looked through a lot of pictures and can't find anything. The front of the truck is to the right of the picture.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jordan

Nice job with the paint. SSC2 is that the "t^*^d" brown...... were did you get it???

That is an unusual piece of steel very well rivited and obviously cut off with a torch.

You ALSO have two other strange extra steel plate on either side of that same cross member.....in line with the frame with 3 recessed holes for the existing croass member rivet heads...... never seen that before....

Anybody else have any ideas....?

Cheers

[Jordan Baker]

Hi Bob. The two steel plates in line with the frame are what the tool box sits and bolts onto. It's four 1/2" unf bolts that screw into the smaller holes. The big ones are there so the plate clears the frame rivets.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jordan

That looks like a cab brace, should have matching holes on the frame cross support for the cab.

See in the photo below which is of my Pat 13, 1942 C60S.



Cheers Phil

[Jordan Baker]

That's it. I just checked my cab brace and it has the holes. I'm thinking I will be fine with out it. What's your thoughts?

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jordan

You could easily repair it by drilling out the 2 remaining rivets and repalce with a suitable piece of angle iron and some new grade 8 bolts.

On the tool box....... the few tool boxes I have seen were held with J bolts to the frame with a wooden spacer for the rivert heads. Yours must be the delux version. My cab 11 experience is showing.

Where did you get the SCC2 paint.

Cheers

[Jordan Baker]

Bob, the plates are 12" x 3" x 1/2". See the first two pictures.

The paint is from McDonald White in Windsor.

I test fitted the drivers side steps and battery tray. Is there supposed to be so much room between the rear of the tray and the frame?

[Jordan Baker]

Couple more progress shots. All the welding has been finished on the cab frame. Its been painted in Por15 and the primer and its final coat of SCC2. I have also started putting on various small brackets again.

[Bob Carriere]

On the battery tray ....... When I reproduced my battery box I opted for installing it lenght wise. First we used an original battery tray as a guide, then designed a battery box that would accommodate a size "35" modern 12 V. battery....but it would only fit lenght wise or 90 degrees to your tray. It allows a closer installation to the frame.

There is archival evidence of mounting the battery box sideways.

I had no choice on my cab 11.... the original in cab battery box soace has been take by the 2 speed T case shifter.

Cheers

[Jordan Baker]

Bob, yeah I saw there was the other type of tray. I went with the one I have as that's the info I was able to find for making one. Plus I was able to use an original cover.

I ended up making the hold down rods myself. Welded the rod onto a plate then ground it down to make it look like it had been forged. The ran a die to thread the ends. The picture with the tray shows the rods attached via screws. I went back and riveted them on properly.

The last picture is the new wood stiffener I had made to replace my slightly eaten original. I painted two coats of Por15 on sanding in between. It gave a rock hard finish that will hopefully keep the bugs and moisture out of it for many years to come.