40 mm Bofors AA guns made in GB and US - Page 4

David_Hayward (RIP) · #91 14-10-04, 00:11

Prompted by interest in Bofors guns, I have placed an enquiry relating to this thread in FOR SALE OR TRADE.

Hanno Spoelstra · #92 15-10-04, 17:44

See Bofors 40mm AA Gun UK for some pictures of a nicely restored 40-mm Bofors.
Excuse my ignorance, but could anyone date this example and tell me where it was built?

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #93 15-10-04, 21:47

Wonderful picture, Hanno!

Obviously a Mk I gun on Mk I carriage. Sights lacking but from the sigths holders I se that there should be a "Polish" sight - in fact a Bofors m/38 FC,

Where did you find it? Mk I survivors are seldom found. Mk III on Mk II carriages we have several of.

For Rob I can confirm (consulting Jarkko Vihavainen in Finland) that your ItK/38 U is made by Mavag in Hungary. U = Unkarilainen = Hungary.

Attached: ItK/38 B nr 52. B = Bofors.

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #94 15-10-04, 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
could anyone date this example and tell me where it was built?

If the gun is in Volkel AFB (NL) it should be one of the KL Lua guns.

12 from Sweden (m/35 nickname "Wilhelmina")
24 from Poland (of 40 ordered)
10 from Hungary (of 50 ordered)

Then the war stopped deliveries to NL.

If the sights should be on the gun I think I could give you a correct answer. Belgian or Swedish made should have Bofors m/35 FC sights, Polish m/36 Goerz and Hungarian Gamma-Bofors m/38 FC.

Date:Pre 1940.
Where built: impossible. Four factories possible.

Cheers (I have just returned from our local pub

)

Stellan

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #95 16-10-04, 08:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
See Bofors 40mm AA Gun UK for some pictures of a nicely restored 40-mm Bofors.

On picture 8 the delivery trade marks are almost visible. Last picture is a NL Naval gun.

Looking at the picture posted above it seems that the gun has a Bofors m/38 FC sight calculator.

The gun is not British made. There are four possible producers:

1. Sweden (Bofors)
2. Poland (Starachowice)
3. Hungary (Mavag)
4. Belgium (Fabrique Nationale)

Of these I think Poland probably is the birthplace and the year 1939 or possibly 1938.

But there is another possibility. In 1939 Bofors in Sweden got an order from Portugal. These guns were made in 1940 but due to the ongoing war they were not delivered (by rail through Germany, France and Spain) before 1943. Portugal sold them some years ago and I have come across such one at a British collector.

Stellan

nuyt · #96 16-10-04, 11:49

Enclosed a picture of a Dutch Bofors in winter 39/40.
Dutch Army had 45 Bofors 40l60tl and Albarda/Kroesen (Nederlands geschut sinds 1677- source of picture) states 36 were acquired from Poland, the remainder from Sweden, Hungary and Italy (?).
De Jong says: 12 from Sweden, 24 from Poland and 10 from Hungary= 46.
Nuyt

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #97 16-10-04, 12:18

Hello and thanks for that picture!

I will try to have a closer look at the sights. I got the production figures from Poland yesterday. Compiling what I have got so far for the Netherlands are:

12 made in Sweden (Bofors) with Bofors m/35 FC sights
24 made in Poland (Starachowice) sights? of 40 ordered.
10 made in Hungary (Mavag) probably Gamma sights of 50 ordered.

So NL on 10th May 1940 had 46 Bofors guns. Some of these were in 1940 handed over by the Germans to Finland.

The ex-NL guns made in Sweden were m/35 and was in Finland labeled ItK/35 and nicknamed "Wilhelmina".

The Artillerie Inrichtingen were planning production of guns and already made munition - when the Germans attacked.

No Bofors guns made in Italy.

Greetings from a rainy Stockholm

Stellan

Hanno Spoelstra · #98 16-10-04, 20:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Where did you find it? Mk I survivors are seldom found. Mk III on Mk II carriages we have several of.
(...)
If the gun is in Volkel AFB (NL) it should be one of the KL Lua guns.
(...)
Portugal sold them some years ago and I have come across such one at a British collector.

It is owned by a private individual living quite near to where I live. I don't know where he got it by I would almost certainly ruly out it is an ex-KL Lua gun (we lost ours in 1940). Portugual seems to be the most likely source, they held on to lots of WW2-vintage equipment until well into the 1980's. Like you noted, luckily many of these found their way into the hands of collectors.

H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #99 16-10-04, 20:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Wonderful picture, Hanno!

Here are two more, this time wartime colour pictures showing a Canadian-crewed Bofors gun:
- http://www.accaan.net/archivesnorman...HD/p004595.jpg
- http://www.accaan.net/archivesnorman...HD/p004596.jpg
Source: http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/rech.php

H.

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**100** 16-10-04, 22:36

1944 "Stiffkey-Stick" sights on the first two,

Greetings,

Stellan

Rob Fast · #**101** 18-10-04, 00:47

This is a little off topic, there is what looks like a large wooden mallet strapped onto the platform. Also what are the box's mounted at the gunners feet hold? Any pics or info? I am loving this thread! Cheers Rob

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**102** 18-10-04, 09:12

1. What is a wooden mallet?

2. The boxes on the platform near the gunlayers foot pedals are containg the sights. On "Hanno´s gun" the sights are not attached but probably still in their boxes.

3. Sights were removed when transporting the gun.

4. This gun is in mint condition. Note brake-rope and spade at the end of the carriage.

Stellan

Bill Murray · #**103** 18-10-04, 14:00

I am not sure what they called such a wooden mallet on a Bofors list of equipment, but in the Marine Corps such a tool was:

Tool-Universal M1A1
"This tool is issued for the purpose of making temporary repairs where standard issue tools fail to accomplish the task or where there is no standard issue tool for the particular failure. Generally a smart bash on the offending part/parts will get the broken part/parts functioning again.
In cases of extreme emergency, Tool-Universal M1A1 may also be used as a substitute Personal Small Arm. Experience has shown it is best used by first swinging the tool in an arc at the offending enemy and then smartly using a sharp downward stroke once the enemy is down.
Due to the extreme simplicity of Tool-Universal M1A1 there are no standard maintenance procedures however field reports indicate Duct Tape is an effective repair medium for minor damages"

Cheers
Bill

Gunner · #**104** 18-10-04, 15:22

Hi Bill:

When I was a young Gunner, my Detachment Commander, a Sgt known for his violent mood swings, called it the "Tools, Adrenaline Flow Inducing, Canadian Mark I"!

He used to induce our adrenaline flow by having us run around the Gun Position waving it over our heads... the number of laps equalled the size of our indiscretion or screw-up. Damn thing got pretty heavy around lap three or four (our Gun Positions are about 300metres across)!

We were always convinced that if we screwed up badly enough he would use it to pound personal parts of our body into a messy paste!

Cheers! Mike

Woj · #**105** 18-10-04, 19:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud

I will try to have a closer look at the sights. I got the production figures from Poland yesterday. Compiling what I have got so far for the Netherlands are:

24 made in Poland (Starachowice) sights? of 40 ordered.

Not at all, Stellan. Polish guns for Netherlands had Goerz sights (I wrote you about this detail). And there was two agreements with Netherlands - first, signed not later than in April 1938 (48 guns), and second, signed not later than 1 February 1939 (40 guns). Guns were produced not only in Starachowice, but also in Rzeszow (H. Cegielski S.A.).

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**106** 20-10-04, 11:38

Yes, you are right Woj!

The first guns bought by Great Britain and the Netherlands from Poland had "Polish sights" = Goerz.

Later deliveries from Sweden (and possibly also Poland) to Great Britain had open cross-wire "spider-web" sights.

So far I know that 16 guns intented for GB was delivered to Finland in 1940. The Finns (VTT state factory) made m/38 Bofors FC sights for those.

Attached a m/36 gun (Belgian, Polish and Swedish looked the same) = British Mk I.

Stellan

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**107** 20-10-04, 12:47

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Enclosed a picture of a Dutch Bofors in winter 39/40.
Nuyt

I would say that this gun has Hungarian Johasz-Gamma sights and thus was made by Mavag. I am not 100% sure but it is not a Polish Goerz sight.

But I am very uncertain so far.

Stellan

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**108** 22-10-04, 07:34

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Enclosed a picture of a Dutch Bofors in winter 39/40.

According to book "Boforskanonen" Stockholm 1961 (source of picture) this should be a British gun. I am not sure but the sights and the calculator looks similar to those on the NL gun.

EDITED: Early type Zeiss sights.

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**109** 22-10-04, 13:33

According to the "La FN et les canons Bofors" published by Belgian Army Museum in December 1989 this picture is showing Belgian troops in Africa.

I do not beleive that. The gun is clearly a British or Commonwealt made with pre-1943 sights on a MK 2 carriage. Note wheels removed.

But what unit could it be?

Hanno Spoelstra · #**110** 22-10-04, 15:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Thank You Hanno and thank You Tony for these pictures. How do You get them from AWM? I havn´t been able to find that out yet.

Find the picture, click right mouse and "save as...". Attach the picture file to your message here quoting the source and at least the picture ID so others can find it back if needed.

HTH,
H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #**111** 22-10-04, 15:04

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Hanno, thanks for the input. The trailers were apparently to contract S/M 6288 'Trailer 1 ton 2wh G/S' with one batch 'G/S and/or Gen.'

In the thread On a Normandy beach... Steve Guthrie noted "one of the Canadian loading tables for D-Day mentions the use 'Trailers, Jahn'. Jahn was one of the manufacturers of the standard US Army 1-ton trailer".

Quote:

The final open cab as you say was the Type or Number 43S which was a hard, open, wider, cab with little relationship to the 43 it seems unless the windscreen had common parts!!

Did not know that, thanks. Learned something new today about CMPs!

H.

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**112** 22-10-04, 15:26

Thank you Hanno!

Now let us see if it works.

Ordnance Factory Maribyrnong, Australia. Guns beeing assembled 12 Oct 1942. As I understand the difficult parts of the breech were made by Chrysler in USA and shipped to Australia.

AWM nr 026845.

SEE PICTURE A FEW POSTS BELOW!

nuyt · #**113** 22-10-04, 15:36

Stellan,
These are indeed Congolese troops, well very likely. I suppose you are right about the gun. If its not a FN type, then it's possible it was supplied by the allies during WW2 stright to Congo?
Nuyt

Overvalwagens!

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**114** 22-10-04, 15:43

Thanks!

Perhaps a post-war photo.

Congo Belge bought a number of guns (20?) direct from Bofors and probably some from FN in Liège. All those had rivetted carriages with short wheelbase. The Belgian sights were of the reflex mirror type.

Stellan

nuyt · #**115** 22-10-04, 15:51

did they buy these?

Hanno Spoelstra · #**116** 22-10-04, 16:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
HOW TO MAKE THE PICCTURE LARGER?

Nearly there, Stellan:
1) Search for AWM nr 026845.
2) Click "enlarge image".
3) Click right mouse and "Save Picture As...".
4) Follow rest of procedure quoted above.

HTH,
H.

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**117** 22-10-04, 16:14

When?

I do not know yet. Will try to find out. In "Boforskanonen" Stockholm 1961, page 18, there is a reference to a manuscript written 1943 by Harald C:son Graim, sales manager for Bofors in Belgium.

Translated: "Belgian Congo had an independant Defense Force and there I managed to get some contracts for the 40 mm gun".

Same book page 173. Orders from Belgium:
Aug 1935 - 8 guns (delivered from Bofors 1936, confirmed)
Feb 1936 - 20 guns (for Congo? my guess)
1939 - 106 guns (probably never delivered)

The 1939 order I think was a stop-gap measure. The FN production went quite well (despite what is written in Terry Ganders book) and a lot of guns were made in Herstal-Liège and also for export.

But in 1939 the Belgians got fears for a German attack and decided to move the production line from Liège to a "safe" place called Anzegem (10 km East of Courtrai).

On 12 May 1940 everything that could be moved from the Anzegem factory was in a hurry sent to France.

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**118** 22-10-04, 16:23

Ordnance Factory Maribyrnong 12 Oct 1942.

Note the number 13 painted in white on the carriage.

nuyt · #**119** 22-10-04, 16:37

The sale to the independent defense force probalby refers to the post war period when there was the "Force Publique"
I dont think the Belgians would have sent 20 (or any) Bofors gun to Africa in 1936, which was under no threat at all. The orders from the 1930's must have been all for Belgium.
Still would say the gun on the pic was delvered by the Allies druing WW2
Nuyt

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #**120** 22-10-04, 16:48

Hmm?

The manuscript is written 1943 - so it cannot be post WW 2 sales. Belgian Congo like the Netherlands East Indies bought their equipment independently from the motherland.

I agree that there was no threat against Beligan Congo pre WW 2 (or even during WW 2).

It took some two years from the purchase of licence rights to the production really started.