The MV Hobby, De-Mob

[chris vickery]

Quite recently I got into an interesting conversation with a long time MV collector and restorer regarding the future of the MV hobby.
He brought up an interesting point, the fact that none of us are getting any younger, and that in itself poses questions as to the feasibility and future of our Hobby.
I would be interested in a Poll, to figure out the average age of MV enthusiasts;
I would hazard a guess to say the median age is probably near 60 for most guys. I myself represent one of a few in the "younger crowd" and I am 43. Scary isn't it? I do not see too many guys younger than myself following in the hobby.
This also brings to question the value of our vehicles and collections of junk;
On one hand, these vehicles are getting older and scarcer to find as projects. The tendency is to think "valuable" as time marches on...
On the other hand, there will come a time when the market will see a flood of vehicles coming out of Estates with less and less buyers to be found.
This would lead one to believe that there will be a peak in value followed by a rapid decline in value. Museums have already got what they want and with less and less to spend and budgets trimmed yearly, I do not see this as the answer.
Don't believe me regarding these scenarios? The same has happened traditionally with the vintage car market. While today, 1960's muscle is in its heyday, give it 20 years. Todays kids don't want grandpas hand-me-downs.
There was a time in recent history when Model T Fords and 1920s and 30s cars were quite rare and collectable. Check out Old Autos anytime to get a reality check... Most of these cars today are now a steal, the prices so low a fellow would be nuts to even try to restore one- it's cheaper to purchase one already done for pennies on the dollar.
I can forsee the decline of collecting in the next 10 to 20 years, happy for me that I shall be one of the few still around (hopefully) to enjoy many more years of economical times.
Thoughts?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

PS, Hanno, can we start a Poll on ages???

There should be one at the top of this page after I post this reply.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Todays kids don't want grandpas hand-me-downs.
There was a time in recent history when Model T Fords and 1920s and 30s cars were quite rare and collectable. Check out Old Autos anytime to get a reality check...

Interestingly, my local Ford museum, housing the world's largest collection of Ford vehicles - no less than 214! - is auctioning 47 pre-war Fords and veteran and vintage vehicles to make the collection "younger". From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Hanno

[maple_leaf_eh]

I follow the hobby and agree that there are probably three motivators.

First is for buyers who can now afford toys, to find whatever they enjoyed in their youth. My Jeeps for instance, are models I drove in the reserves in my teens.

Second are machinery students, who enjoy (?) the challenge of keeping old iron running. The Hammond Barn crowd have WWII vehicles under restoration, and they work on something to learn how it was built and can be brought back to life. The crazier ones have heavy, stinky, expensive and awkward vehicles like 5-ton trucks, wreckers, tracked and big wheeled vehicles.

Third, and far less common IMHO, are collector/builder/investors. There are some of us who see money in everything, and work on projects to resell. (Do they ever get their money back?) Yes, there are investers who want an MB, an M4, a Universal Carrier, or a Ferret, but how many of them are walking around lopsided because of their fat wallets?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Well that fits as it was Henry Ford who was quoted as saying "History is bunkum" !

[chris vickery]

Hanno, your reply with the indication of a museum making the collection "younger" and "recognizable" is exactly what I am alluding to;
It seems that most collectables, whatever they are, revolve around the generation that most appreciates and can afford them. Typically this is the age group which hovers between 40 and 60, those whos children are grown and gone, have stability and have the financial freedom to pursue the hobby.
In our market for example, it is not quite the same as collecting match book covers or coins. Heavy machinery which was made for young man's sport becomes more and more of a challenge even to the most able bodied among us.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I have read a number of studies about the antique car hobby over the last few years and yes the average age of collectors is getting older. I'll try and find my notes on the studies and post the links.

The MV club I belong to is very concerned about this issue and has been for a number of years the core of the club are now all my age about 65. Very recently though we started to see an influx of younger late 20s and mid 30s some ten in the last year which we are seeing as being a really good thing.

Cheers Phil

[rob love]

My own personal belief is that some vehicles are timeless, like the Jeeps, while the demand for more unique stuff like our CMPs will fade as time goes on. How many young guys even own a timing light these days, or enjoy the purr of a flathead V8?

My own club seems to lose about 2 or 3 old members for every new member that gets involved in the hobby. Mind you, it could well be that in today's world of internet, the necessity of joining a club is not as great as in the past.

Anyway, time to go vote in the poll and see where I stand in the rankings.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

I just came back today from an end of the season cruise day, 123 vehicles attending I took my HUP along with lots of display information about the history of the truck in particular its restoration and CMPs in general. Drew a continual stream of people over the 5 hours I was there. Some casual interest people and some read every page of information I had posted.

So there is hope.

Cheers Phil

[Robin Craig]

I am 52 but still think I am 19 but after two failed marriages everything I buy is either on the line of credit or it is invisible cash from small flips, I don't have a fat wallet but we do have a couple of Ferrets and a Land Rover 101 but no garage as yet, maybe my priorities are wrong.

R

[Lynn Eades]

Chris, Phil etc. The "baby boomers", that "bubble" in the population, the "pig in the python" The people born between 1946 and 1964 are the bulge in the post war population that determines most trends in our lives from real estate prices to old vehicle prices.
What you guys are saying is pretty much right.
When I was at high school with no $ (still the same) It was Twin cam Escorts or Mini Cooper S's (English) Valiant Chargers or GT Falcons (Australia) or Mustangs, Corvettes and Camaros (top spec ones) (State side) You might have hankered something different from that era,(Ferarri Dinos, Lancia Stratos, Alpine Renaults, or what ever, but what ever it was as we grew older and locked the kids out, we now have a spare $ to spend on the dreams of our youth. How much would you pay for any of those cars now? There is more demand for, than there are of those vehicles, so they are almost un procurable unless you made lots of money.
My son -in-law likes the early Japanese cars (these kids are sick!)The military vehicle thing is the same for us.
Yes Chris I agree the WWII M.Vs. appeal to mostly older people, and yes there are a smaller group coming through who will chase them. This is due mostly to the lower birth rate. However there are always those few who have picked up the dream from their father, uncle, or neighbour. (Some really sick ones are into Landrovers!)
I was pleased to meet a few young guys and see many others at War and Peace in the U.K. recently who have, or are developing the disease.
I don't think the majority of people get into this for the money (a few do) because it is a "love" or "passion" (for you hard arses that can't use the L word)
I think the hobby is healthy enough.
As we fall off the perch and our patient and long suffering wives flog our stuff off for peanuts, younger blokes will snap it up. (her words, not mine) At which point they become the custodian, most of who will not look after our cherished treasures as well, know as much about them, or drive them as well as we did (in our humble opinions) I won't care because I will be busy trying to put out the fire!

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

When I was at high school with no $ (still the same) It was Twin cam Escorts or Mini Cooper S's (English) Valiant Chargers or GT Falcons (Australia) or Mustangs, Corvettes and Camaros (top spec ones) (State side) You might have hankered something different from that era,(Ferarri Dinos, Lancia Stratos, Alpine Renaults, or what ever, but what ever it was as we grew older and locked the kids out, we now have a spare $ to spend on the dreams of our youth. How much would you pay for any of those cars now? There is more demand for, than there are of those vehicles, so they are almost un procurable unless you made lots of money.

Now that you mention it, there is a 1975 sting-ray out in the garage. It is truly an American icon of decadence and style. 8 feet of hood, 4 feet of cockpit, and 3 feet of tail. It is like driving the batmobile with it's never-ending hood. It actually belongs to the wife.....I just get to do the repairs like the frame replacement I did a couple years back.

Come fall, it looks very out of place in the shed between the MVs and howitzers.

They are actually very reasonably priced, although one should really read up before heading out with the cheque book to buy one.

[Bob Carriere]

...after a spin in the cab 11 I feel like 19 again....... getting out of it I feel like 70......

Temporary custodian concept is very accurate...........
Personally I hope to be buried in it.

Cheers

[David Dunlop]

Interesting thread. Not sure there is any simple answer, but there are a number of constants worth looking at when it comes to collecting (of any kind).

Interests change over time. What was in demand yesterday, may not be at all today and may or may not be tomorrow.

For the vast majority of collectors of anything, there is always a base, personal connection motivating them to collect whatever it is. This does not have to be a direct connection, but can be through contact with a close family member who had a direct personal contact. If this connection does not exist, these collectors will not exist.

Unless you are extremely well financed, and have a keen eye for the best (or someone in your employe with such an eye) most collectors are not doing so as a means of investment.

Ford's museum action does not surprise me. If they cannot keep the crowds coming, they close their doors. 20 years ago, a local radio station promoted itself as the home of Classic Rock from the 50's, 60's and 70's. They are still around today, but guess what, they are now the home of Classic Rock from the 70's, 80's and 90's.

If any one thing concerns me about the future of military vehicle collections, it would be indifference. The largest pool of MV's still belong to World War Two and there are still a lot of people alive today that directly connect to that point in time. When those generations are gone…

What could happen to those of us with large collections? Take a look at the Littlefield Collection. Did it stay together? Did all the pieces get top dollar? Will they all be looked after as well as the original owner looked after them?

David

[Ryan]

Wow, just voted and I can see I'm the youngest so far. And I'm 40!

[jdmcm]

My two cents is that I see some hope out there...in a few weeks Fury will hit theaters and like Brad Pitt or not he is going to do a lot to raise the profile of our hobby...a major Hollywood film with real tanks, including an actual Tiger running amok? Fantastic I say! This will spark the imagination of a lot of kids who only have a passing interest in WW2 or military vehicles. As well the online computer game World of a Tanks has over 70 million registered players....that is a lot of interest in tanks...from a crowd I'm guessing is a touch younger than all of us! (45 here)

I think we as a group need to capitalize on these kind of events and do our part to help get the younger people interested...I'm going to tell you having crotchety old guys tell me my jeep was wrong because of a non-period shovel or that an in progress restoration should not be shown in public with primer spots, didn't really do much for my enthusiasm for the hobby when I was younger..sometimes we are our own worst enemies...I know out where I live there is no shortage of infighting amongst collectors clubs and groups that only serves to turn off newcomers, really of all ages.

And I'm really not sure we should look at the eventual drop in value of the vehicles as a negative either, I mean the prices as they are today are almost ridiculous, a drop in prices will allow those non-billionaire types to get into the market and help perpetuate the hobby...I see that as a positive outcome of the eventual price decline predicted.

One final aspect is that governments, certainly in North America, are no longer selling off the vehicles to the public like in years past...there will be no M1 Abrams to replace the Sherman's and Stuarts in collectors hearts as there is in other hobbies...our own government won't even allow worn out tank tracks to be sold to the public, they are all controlled goods that must be destroyed...if the current service vehicles are reset or shredded...what will spark the interest of a new generation?

[jack neville]

What is available today is an endless stream of cheap re-enacting supplies of any era, type, nation coming out of China. Every good war movie promotes and enables young people to get involved in the MV/ re-enacting hobby very cheaply. They can all then get a ride on something. Doubt there are too many of us older collectors with vehicles who would knock back a passenger or two dressed the part if space is available. (It is the uniformed participants who made the XXX Corp event look great.)

As for parts of the future? 3D printers!

And look at the difference to war movies that computers have made.

I think the hobby has a few more good years left in it.

[The Bedford Boys]

Here in NZ, I think the hobby is in pretty good hands (if I do say so myself). We have a strong group of "Young Guns" which are working their way into positions within the works of the New Zealand Miltary Vehicle Collectors Club (NZMVCC). The club editor (me) and membership officer are both in their early 20's.

The trouble with MV's as a hobby is getting one of your own at a reasonable price. Everyone thinks what they have is gold. It's the problem with a lot of hobbies, when I was putting my Mini together, everyone thought that what they had was worth a million dollars.

Also, there is a bit of a problem, at least in my experience, with older members not wanting to use their vehicles. All they want to do is parades or displays. Which bores the living s**t out of us younger blokes. We like to get out in the mud and dirt and USE the MV's for what they do best, driving off-road.

I guess we all need to be concious of the prices we ask when selling our vehicles. Sure, everyone wants as much as possible, but I think you've got to be reasonable. A year or two ago, I sold an ex-army Land Rover to a bloke for a lot less than what I could have got for it if I had put it on TradeMe or the likes. Why? Because he was looking to get into the hobby and really wanted a Land Rover. He is still enjoying it and is now one of the area reps for the NZMVCC.

Every one of us needs to do our bit to ensure the longevity of our clubs and our hobbies.

I organise the "Warhorses" section of the bi-annual Wings Over Wairarapa Airshow. This event brings together several MV/militaria groups from around the country. It's a great way of getting to meet people and offers a superb chance to advertise the positives of our hobby. I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is that if you don't get out and fly the flag for the hobby, then how else will people get interested?

(oh, and the Warhorses event isn't just a parade and display, we run rides and this year we're aiming to break the Carrier world record. So it's not boring like other parades )

Alex

[rob love]

There is the aspect about "entry level" prices to get into the hobby. Most guys in their 20s are worried about housing, their car, and their beer. We see carriers running from $30K to ?? these days, and even junkster hulls have asking prices of around $7K. Then you want a manual? $200-400. Need to get the flathead rebuilt? There goes another $3K. And the list is endless.

Jeep prices for the most part seem to be getting out of hand, unless it's a basket case. CMPs are usually a little better, although I have seen some ludicrous prices on direlect cab and chassis. The sellers see the pristine stuff on a site like this, look at the asking prices of the few they can find record of selling, and they price their butchered relic as though it is one of the finished ones.

Small wonder the young guys aren't lined up to get in to the hobby.

Oh yeah, there is one more thing that guys in their 20s think about....young ladies. And the average young lady does not normally get attracted to guys driving CMPs, in fact quite the opposite.

[Frank v R]

Guys, I read all this with great interest, having been in the hobby for about 35 years now I have seen our members getting older , but on the happy side I do see new young blood coming into the hobby , even through my parts business I have late 20's early 30's members restoring CCKW's and heavier vehicles, the big US regional shows are a good place to see the new blood coming into the hobby , I think that a MVPA convention is a poor place to see how the hobby is doing due the expense of attending these, another part of this is that the hobbies we grew up with are vanishing due to the fact kids only seem to be able to use their thumbs, when was the last time you saw a bunch of kids playing street hockey , most of these kids will grow up with no real skills, and no knowledge of history, still one more big factor in Canada is that we will no longer see tactical soft skin vehicles coming out surplus so that will leave only vehicles that require for the most part a ground up restoration that brings us to one last very important point , disposable cash, these days that is less than it was in the past for most people, no more buy your surplus military vehicle and go for a drive,

[David Dunlop]

Just another thought with the younger crowd and our hobby. Could they be intimidated by the fact vintage MV's have standard transmissions, many of which come with no syncro? Standard transmissions are getting rare in modern vehicles today. I work a couple of days a week in a wash bay at a local dealership. Every once in a while the youngest guy in the bay ( mid 20's) has to bring in a Jeep Wrangler that has a standard transmission and he cannot do it. One of us 50+ Geezers has to drive it in and out for him.

David

[chris vickery]

I am happy fellows are reading and contributing to my post, it is certainly a topic for discussion.
At this time the Poll suggests an approx 65% of MLU contributors are in the 51+ group, just as I suspected...
Pertaining to the attraction of young guys to the hobby; help us to help ourselves in preserving the hobby by giving a deal to a newcomer.
As pointed out by previous comments, far too many think they have gold and ask ridiculous prices. I overpaid on my first CMP truck, mainly because I was not "connected". The same went for many parts which I had made when I could have found originals cheaper if I knew where to look.
I must commend a few guys that DID help me out when I first started by giving me a break or a deal on items to help me along as well as offer good advice. (you guys know who you are and many of you are here listening )
Most recently I got a young guy started who was hot to have my M715. Yes, I took a loss on it overall but the smile on his face was worth a few bucks.

[Scott Bentley]

I wrote a huge response to a similar post here a couple of years back. I ended up deleting it as it was rather harsh towards the OMVA, but my sentiment hasn't really changed so i'll toss up the short version of it.

In 2008, I had just bought my first MV (M151A2) since owning an M38A1 as a teenager in the early 90s. The MLU membership was (and still is) instrumental in getting it on the road.

I decided to drive it from Trenton to the OMVA Summer Show in Oshawa; this would have been in June 2009. My goal was to get an OMVA membership and meet fellow MV'ers. The Coles Notes version is that I had developed a carb problem over the 75 mile drive from Trenton to Oshawa. I ended up pulling the carb and cleaned/adjusted while at least half a dozen other older Jeep owners watched from 100' away. Why 100' away from the other Jeeps? Because (i'm guessing because I was new) that was where I was instructed to park; 100' away on my own. This was after I was initially told to park in the parking lot with all of the other spectators. The only one at that show who actually came over and offered help with my carb was Mr Anderson (RIP) from Barrys Bay. I fixed my carb and went on my way. Although I doubt it was the club's intent, my spouse and I could not have possibly been made to feel anymore ostracized.

That one incident right there soured me from any further involvement in clubs. Almost all of the other MV guys I personally know in my age demographic feel exactly the same way.

If it is up to the new guy to cross no mans land and extend his hand to a group of old guys with their arms crossed, them membership is going to tumble, especially where there are excellent knowledge bases like MLU.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

At this time the Poll suggests an approx 65% of MLU contributors are in the 51+ group, just as I suspected...

As a member of that sector, I want to quote Jack Donaghy from 30 Rock where he states “Fifty is the new 40 for men. Fifty is still 60 for women.”

Perhaps with the age shift, and the unknown length of the male lifespan in the near future, the MV ownership age is not that far advanced. I had honestly expected the poll to lean more towards the 60-80 group. I still feel like one of the young guys at the meets and conventions I go to. Then again I may just be fooling myself.

Actually, to look at the poll in a different light, approx 1/3 of the collectors are in the "under 50 " category, 1/3 are in the 50 to 60 category, and 1/3 are in the 60 and up range. Interesting.


By the way Chris, in your first post you mentioned discussing this with a long time collector. Was that with me? Seems to me we might have broached the subject on your first visit earlier this month.

[jdmcm]

Well put Scott, I have had similar experiences in the past when I was starting out...we can be our own worst enemies

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

Actually, to look at the poll in a different light, approx 1/3 of the collectors are in the "under 50 " category, 1/3 are in the 50 to 60 category, and 1/3 are in the 60 and up range

.... of which 100%, 66% and 33% are online, respectively, willing & able to participate in this poll. But that is my guess only

H.

[jdmcm]

Even with prices at almost record highs on many of the collectible military vehicles there are ways for people to use their own hard work and ingenuity to participate. For example there is a group here on the west coast that has built a "replica" M10 Achilles tank destroyer. They began by salvaging a fabbed up tub from a scrap forestry yarder that itself used surplus Sherman running gear, and from materials they had around they built a fantastic homage to a WW2 tank destroyer. From 50 feet away you would be hard pressed not to believe it was real. Now I'm sure the rivet counters will deride it for being an imposter, and the value to a collector is negligible, but the fun factor is off the charts! And they didn't need to spend a quarter million or more dollars to do it. With the technical skills I see the young crowd applying to customizing their cars, trucks and motorcycles, they are well capable of building a variety of replica vehicles that would otherwise be unavailable to most of us. Now changing people attitudes toward "replicas" and welcoming these as legitimate representations of the hobby is another matter....

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Interestingly, my local Ford museum, housing the world's largest collection of Ford vehicles - no less than 214! - is auctioning 47 pre-war Fords and veteran and vintage vehicles to make the collection "younger". From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Hanno

Hi Hanno and others.

Hanno, I just went through the whole 48 vehicles currently under auction and there are only 5 with bid so far. Some pretty cheap ones available too.

I have to agree with everyone. I am the president of our local vintage/classic car club (and have been for far too long), The average age is now in the over 60's and there is not the same interest in the older cars as there was 15-20 years ago. The public love the older cars, but now days do not have the knowledge or space to restore a vehicle.

My father said many years ago the the interest in the hobby will come from those people who remember their first car or the cars that were in the news when they were young. That is why there is so much interest in the super cars of yesterday today.

We are all just custodians and we must eventually pass on to the next generation the vehicles we have saved. Of course the problem there is the lack of knowledge within todays youth. Most do not know which end of a screwdriver to use. Then there is the family time, mortgage, school fees etc which are so much higher than when we started, let alone the lack of availability of parts at a reasonable cost.

We have to just keep showing our vehicles and encouraging every person who shows a little interest in our hobby.

Regards Rick.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I have a different take, and not quite so pessimistic. While there are fewer youngsters per capita taking up the hobby, there is still a large number coming from an increasing number of countries. Re-enactors will take the opportunity to buy the old guys' vehicles (starting with the cheaper, smaller ones but inevitably working up) and will of necessity learn how to work on them. I expect the large, partially restored and expensive to operate trucks will fade away but the fun, sporty, historic ones will endure. I predict good, solid, accurate restorations will all find homes. What's out there is finite...they aren't making them any more and any un-restored ones will be to far gone to fix, so prices will stay reasonably strong.

[chris vickery]

Well said Rick.
The truth of the matter these days is that many of this generation have grown up watching TV, playing Xbox video games or generally letting their minds rot.
I believe that many of us grew up with knowledge because it was gained by exposure- if you worked on a farm, pumped gas at the local service garage or helped Dad by holding the flashlight while he was fixing something. At least thats the way I grew up. We played outside and created our own fun. We built forts and go-carts from whatever junk we could scrounge. When we were older it was old lawnmowers and field buggy cars cobbled together from junkyard scraps. We modified our bicycles or built what we could so we could HAVE a bicycle. No sense of entitlement was given.
Kids today don't want things unless they are cool, come in a fancy box or are endorsed by some idiot actor or sports celebrety. God forbid you try and pass off a hand me down or used item.
Little wonder why it is difficult to attract youth...