New Armoured Vehicle in Pickering

[Robin Craig]

For those of you not from the area you may be wondering about the title.

Anyone else knows that the area has for many years been the home of a nuclear power generating operation run by Ontario Power Generation, an incarnation of the former Hydro One.

We were around town on Saturday and this was in a gas station.

The operator was less than thrilled at having pictures taken but after many years of being around law enforcement, the result is our veterans fought for our freedom to be free, so that is why I have the pictures.

The vehicle is an Oshkosh Defense product called the Sandcat Tactical Protection Vehicle and allegedly can do 120 km/hr but likely with awful fuel mileage.

It is based on a Ford 5500 platform and has been around in production for a few years and has a number of users both military and civil.

OPG has it's own security now having taken over from Durham a while back. This is all public domain info.

Likely as not we will never own this

Regards

Robin

[Robin Craig]

And the rest of them

R

[rob love]

And you wonder why your province is financially in the crapper. Someone has been watching too many Die Hard movies.

[Scott Bentley]

Considering some of the vehicles i've used in conflict environments (Iltis comes to mind), this seems pretty over the top, even for a Nuclear Power Plant.

I'd love to see the threat assessment that validated OPG's need for baby MRAPs (complete with cupola).

Rob, they just download the costs to the consumer. Hell, according to my bill, i'm even helping with their "debt retirement".

[Jon Skagfeld]

Bruce nuclear generating station at Douglas Point has a fleet of these and they train at the 4 Division Training Centre, aka the Meaford tank range.

[Ed Storey]

If that is the security truck, just imagine what military kit the guards must have!

[maple_leaf_eh]

A friend of mine is a behind the scenes guy with a shooting association in Ontario. There was a police and law enforcement sniper shooting clinic at a private range. My friend was absolutely floored by the quality and price tags on the average tactical trooper's gear. If nothing is too good for soldiers, if anything too good for the police?

BTW, I'd really prefer that police forces invested in better winter tires and roadside emergency equipment than more black gear.

[rob love]

The cupola impressed me as well. What is their main armament to install in it? Perhaps with the Toronto 18 all out of jail now, the nuke cops are preparing to repel paintball section attacks.

Unbelievable.

[jdmcm]

I'm all for the police having quality equipment...but it has simply gone too far...the only people a vehicle like this is designed to intimidate is the public...when did it shift from community policing to policing the community? I for one am glad to see the US fighting to close the 1033 program, we need to de-militarize our police as well...you equip, arm and dress like soldiers...you act like soldiers...not civilians, which is what the police are

[Gordon Yeo]

Maybe if the police are going to act like soldiers we should cut their wages by half too a soldiers pay. Think of there savings to the tax payer. OPP got an 8% pay raise, who else gets that in this day and age.

[chris vickery]

Apparently US police departments are having issues returning their supplied military gear back to the Defense Dept.
Many American depts are now trying to unmilitarize their forces
In light of recent events there.
Glad to see OPG screwing us some more...

[45jim]

This is not a baby MRAP, not even close. This is a security vehicle and the protection level of a security vehicle is determined by the weapons carried by the security staff themselves not some threat assessment, for exactly the reason your thinking. If they carry just pistols then the protection level is just that. The reason the vehicle is slab-sided is that its easy to fabricate armour plate for the simple body. Lets face it, it's a commercial cube van chassis with a steel box on it. The ballistic windows are off-the-shelf items so nothing here is cutting edge or "over the top". The design and the colour are there to intimidate and provide a limited amount of protection, that's all.

A terrorist attack on a Nuclear facility is something we don't want to contemplate and unless the responsible police agency was extremely well trained they could do more harm than good. A well trained internal force would know what area or item is critical as opposed to ordinary, where its ok to use your weapon and where its not.

And remember this is not a police force they are not there to interact with the public, they are there to protect a vital point - that's all. If next week someone blew up a reactor and all we had on duty were Commissionaires we would be calling for the Governments head. Clearly the expense of a small force for such an expensive and important part of our infastructure is justified. These vehicles are used all over the world for similar work.

If you want one, get your controlled goods and buy one. Lenco will sell you one from stock but it wont have the cool looking Israeli windows.

[Scott Bentley]

MRAP = Mine Resistant Ambush Protected

It's a class of vehicle which that one clearly is. Get over it.

EDIT to add:

Let me quantify some of my earlier comments so I don't come across as sounding too harsh.

The protective level of an armoured vehicle is that in which it provides to the occupants, i.e., from small arms, light anti-armour weapons etc. It has sweet diddly to do with what the crew is carrying or whats mounted on it. When the term MRAP is used, the first thing that comes to mind are FPI Cougar's and Buffalo's. They merely represent the top end of the MRAP scale. Virtually anything that is factory armoured and militarized these days is an MRAP (save for the light weight stuff like armoured SUVs used for VIPs). That thing isn't an up-armoured SUV nor is it a Brinks Truck... That thing is built to withstand something stronger; think armoured piercing and your getting close.

A threat assessment is used to determine what weapon systems and tactics could be reasonably expected from the "threat". This then allows the organization to determine everything from how high the perimeter fence should be to what equipment or weapons are required to defeat that threat. Following that, "needs" comes in the form of a Statement of Requirements which is then used to shop around, in this case for a Baby MRAP. It is not about just buying something because its cool, available, someone else uses it, or looks threatening. Its about equipping to meet the threat. This is why I mentioned that "I'd love to see the threat assessment that validated OPG's need for baby MRAPs (complete with cupola)". I'm not advocating for or against it, i'm just curious as a citizen of Canada.

A few years ago I was part of the military working group that determined the Tactics, Techniques and Procedures for EROC. If you're not familiar, EROC was the program that saw Canada purchase Cougars and Buffalos (and Huskys) for use in the opening of dangerous routes in Afghanistan. Additionally, I completed significant training on Security Engineering with US Army Corp of Engineers. This is where my babble about threat assessments come from. So, admittedly I know dick all about Nuclear Plants and Policing, however I am coming from a college level background of securing Vital Points and patrolling with MRAPs.

Good day to you.

[45jim]

Scott you don't come off harsh, just opinionated and uninformed. Bang your head a few times, it'll work itself out.

The MRAP is a unique class of vehicles, complete with its own "statement of requirements" that the vehicle manufacturers used to develop these specialized vehicles. Your statement"Virtually anything that is factory armoured and militarized these days is an MRAP" is ridiculous, if everything else was an MRAP why would they have spent billions of dollars building and deploying a whole new class of vehicles? Clearly it was done because the MRAP requirement was unique and no vehicle at the time offered the protection the Military required. It was also so specialized that most were broken up in Iraq and AF and not kept in the inventory of any major country. Pretty much useless anywhere else, hence they are no longer manufactured, so nothing today is MRAP.

Having worked closely for many years with the Israeli company that developed the Sand Cat I can tell you this is not an MRAP, even in their marketing material it states "the Sand Cat uses lessons learned from MRAP development in its design" it does not state anywhere that the Sand Cat meets the protection criteria of the MRAP, JLTV or MATV.

If you're curious about the basic level of protection, have someone go to the weld seam on the vehicle (next time they are getting fuel), measure the thickness of the plate and look up MIL-STD 46100. This is an open source document that will tell you the basic level of protection of the armour plate used in construction.

From their brochure (which I have in my desk)....

"The SandCat is manufactured using a standard, factory-installed 'A kit' armour system, which is low in weight and enables less consumption of fuel. It is the base-level metal composite unit. The 'B kit' armour is a composite-ceramic armoured solution fitted in addition to the 'A kit' for a higher ballistic protection. These kits are flexible enough to be assembled in the field."

Your comment regarding the level of protection of this vehicle as seen filling up (no "B" kit) is wildly optimistic, just saying.... your making an uninformed guess. Back in the day we called that "speaking out of one's ass" not sure what they call it nowadays.

The protection level of a military vehicle is not just based on crew protection. It is designed to keep a combat vehicle in combat, so weapon systems, ammunition, fuel and engines are all protected. And in security vehicles where its often a low paying-low skill job, they don't want some dufus playing quick draw shooting a grandma through the wall of the "armoured car" so its written right into the ballistic spec that whatever weapon they are issued is the base level of protection.

Patrolling in a vehicle does not give you any insight into how it was designed, tested or manufactured, it just lets you know if its a POS or not. It does however improve your patrolling skills, which is the name of the game as a soldier. Soldiers don't even know the level of protection their vehicles are manufactured to.

As for the "threat assessment" rant, and how that relates to vehicles and armour your still pretty much in the "don't know dick" category. As part of a working group all you get to do is make a "wish list" of what you want and send it into the void. I was on the working group for the Coyote and what a POS that turned out to be. I (and others) really wanted a small, fast Recce vehicle with a 20mm cannon and good optics. Not at all what we ended up with and too many crews paid the ultimate price in that thing. Being on a working group teaches you nothing, but it does give you a warm and fuzzy because someone asked your opinion.

The reason I'm so opinionated about armour is that as a retired armoured crewman I entered the armour business full time in 1996 developing and making Coyote ceramic armour kits and have been at it ever since. I don't spend much time speculating on armour, I go to the range and shoot. As they say one test is worth a thousand "educated" opinions.


There is noting "op-sec" in these statements.

[Scott Bentley]

My experience didn't come from sitting behind a desk here in Canada Jim. It started in a Mamba in Yugoslavia and ended in an RG in Kandahar. Regardless, you come off like a bitter retired Corporal.

Anyway, heres my M151A2 parked between two MRAPs that are currently in service along with many others here in Canada.


Good luck to you and your ceramic tiles.

[45jim]

My point exactly, you don't have any experience with armour technology other than driving around in an armoured vehicle. However that total lack of technical experience (or good judgement) didn't stop you from standing on your soapbox pretending its a subject for which you could offer intelligent comment, you just believed everyone here is as ignorant on the subject as you are and you could tout yourself as the sme. I'm sure Justin Trudeau could employ such bullshit in Ottawa.

I also patrolled in Bosnia but not in a well protected Mamba but in a shitty old white painted Cougar with no add-on armour. Doesn't make me unique, thousands of others served there and no, I didn't retire as a corporal but had I what difference would that have made? Your a pretty small man if you think rank is a measure of worth, lots of people promoted two steps beyond their level of competence in any Army. Perhaps that's a soft spot in your case?

Bitter? No, I just don't suffer fools.

Nice 151 though, I guess its not worth anything as it didn't serve in AF better trade it for an Iltis or something.

[cliff]

OK time to stop posting replies like the ones above guys.

CALM down and let the matter drop or I will start deleting posts OK?

Cheers
Cliff

[Perry Kitson]

Not wanting to flog a dead horse, but I just have to get back to some comments about Ontario's nuclear power boondoggle.
OPG has always spent every penny it has made. Outlandish bonuses, ridiculous wages and pay increases compared to the private sector, and my favorite, moving compensation payments. All the while never setting aside a single dollar to pay for the costs of re-tubing or de-commissioning(with the Pickering station slated for shutdown in 2020, costs of de-commissioning are estimated at 20-40 billion dollars, all from the tax payer-still think nuclear energy is cheapest???). They have always relied on the taxpayer to fund what any other business would have to save for. One only needs to read the Ontario Auditor Generals report and you will become instantly suicidal. People being paid between $50,000 and $380,000 to cover moving costs of VOLUNTARY moves, even some that were farther away from the facility they worked at!! Data entry clerks making $40 per hour, when the provincial private sector average is between $14-$18 per hour. As for security, threat assessments have been done on the effects of a tsunami!( at a cost of ??? ). I think I will go find some rope now.

Perry

Oh yes, I am certainly in the "over the top camp"

[chris vickery]

Perry
I work in and around the power utilities sector for one of the largest electrical companies in the world.
I agree that some aspects of OPG seem ludicrous, but wages are on par with every other generating facility I have been at, coast to coast.
If you think OPG pays their nuclear workers too much, you should see what Bruce Power (privately owned and operated) pays theirs ( a fair bit more).
I am not sure why the pay inequity between utilities and the private sector.
In actuality, maybe it is the private sector that are underpaid?
I do know that a lot of time and effort is put into training employees, whose job it is is to put reliable energy into our homes and businesses 24/7.
As an example, the linesman who is hanging out of a bucket truck on Christmas Day in freezing weather so you and your family can enjoy your Holiday. The operators who maintain generation stations year round, on 12hr shift, weekends and holidays so we have heat and light.
Paid too much? I suppose it is relative and depends on where you are looking at it from...

[Perry Kitson]

Chris,
Is that me holding the frying pan or under it???
Don't get me wrong. I am by no means a communist! I don't begrudge anyone making a good living. Every government Ontario has had for the past 3 decades has allowed OPG to run amok. Even the OPG pension fund is heading toward a 2 billion dollar shortfall. Even the Liberal government has realised the folly that is OPG and scrapped plans to build a new nuclear generating station and buy electricity from Quebec instead. As for training, I know people with 2 interprovincial licenses, that's 8 years, (16,000 hours) of training that don't make anywhere near what non skilled workers do at OPG. Our F18 pilots are paid less than health and safety site inspectors with no college or university education. I have done lots of research on this and could go on for pages with examples. But this is not the place for a political debate. I will stop venting now and move on to more calming subjects

cheers, Perry

[B. Harris]

I walk by these types vehicles everyday when I go to work... and people Im glad they are operated by the best trained and equipped folks in the business. If most people knew what is inside and what goes on in the largest nuclear facility in the world (privately owned and operated) this would not even be discussed as a dollar and cents issue.
..............You do the geography..................

Harris

[Lynn Eades]

We Robin, Look what you've started!
The vehicle looks like it came from a Mad Max movie.
Next time I'll stand up, because most of the above mentioned went over my head.

[Jordan Baker]

Three of these vehicles have been donated to the Oshawa Tank Museum.