Another Mk.I Canadian colour question

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #1 20-07-12, 06:06

Many Canadian CMP's were factory painted desert 'Light Stone'. Mk.I Canadian carriers were 'desert equipped' with sand shields and extra water bins at the back...yet...after going through all the material I have I can't find a single example of a Canadian factory painted carrier in desert 'Light Stone'. The one example of 'new' Canadian carriers I have in North Africa all have the 'sling here' and bridge class sign painted over which strongly suggests the desert paint was new and over the (khaki?) factory finish.

So my question is...were Canadian Carriers ever factory painted in desert 'Light Stone' paint?

RichardT10829 · #2 20-07-12, 16:33

i will be corrected here no doubt but its my understanding that they left Windsor in the standard drab green colour... i have heard that some supplied to the Italian Theatre 43 - 45 were painted SCC2 Brown, but have never heard of them being light stone when they left the factory.

Jordan Baker · #3 20-07-12, 16:41

Can't say I have come across and pictures from the factory with them in a lighter colour. Also I have only come across NOS parts in either the KG#3 or SCC2 colours. I have seen some CMP parts in factory paint light stone but that was it.

Neil Ashley · #4 23-07-12, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

i will be corrected here no doubt but its my understanding that they left Windsor in the standard drab green colour... i have heard that some supplied to the Italian Theatre 43 - 45 were painted SCC2 Brown, but have never heard of them being light stone when they left the factory.

Brown from it adoption in 1941-2(?) was the standard colour untill the adoption of Green in early 1944.

My Mk11* came out the factory in brown in 1944.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #5 23-07-12, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Ashley

Brown from it adoption in 1941-2(?) was the standard colour untill the adoption of Green in early 1944.

My Mk11* came out the factory in brown in 1944.

Thanks Niel. It seems ''desert" coloured CMP's and wheeled armour left the assembly line alongside the more common brown and khaki versions. It would make sense carriers did too but I can't find any evidence they did.

Jon Skagfeld · #6 23-07-12, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Thanks Niel. It seems ''desert" coloured CMP's and wheeled armour left the assembly line alongside the more common brown and khaki versions. It would make sense carriers did too but I can't find any evidence they did.

Does this affect your plan to re-paint your carrier in Light Stone?

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #7 24-07-12, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

Does this affect your plan to re-paint your carrier in Light Stone?

Thanks Jon, Leave it to you to let the carrier out of the bag. It may not change the plan, but it wold certainly mean the difference between stripping it down and painting each bit or just giving an "in theater" RCEME once over look.

eddy8men · #8 11-12-14, 11:47

hey fella's I don't want to upset the apple cart but I have a little problem.

I have a mk1* carrier hull number CB 874 (very early with british headlights) I am in the process of redoing my rushed resto and want to get it right this time round but the paint colour doesn't seem to fit in with what I have read on the forum, ie it's not brown it's a lightish olive drab. the pic shows the back of the grenade box and the colour on the hull is the same (I also checked behind the choke cable box) so the carrier was definitely painted green from the factory I just need to know what the paint code is ? has anyone found the same factory colour or was it just my carrier that got painted green

cheers

rick

eddy8men · #9 11-12-14, 11:59

another pic of the side which might show the colour better

kevin powles · #10 11-12-14, 12:03

Hi Bruce, you say you have a picture of a Canadian carrier in 'light stone'
, can you post up the picture?.

It just so happens I am working on a 1940 light stone carrier as we speak, will post up a few pictures of progress so far, it was colour matched from a mike st**** book on caunter camo. I puzzled over weather they left the factory in 'light stone'?, but I have seen a few pictures of carriers in desert colours which appear to have a darker colour underneath wearing through.

The light stone they mixed for me is a little lighter than the swatch, but I will go over the whole carrier again at the end with a Matt light stone.

Kev.

tankbarrell · #11 11-12-14, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddy8men

it's a lightish olive drab.

Rick, presumably, yours is Khaki Green no.3.

Ben · #12 11-12-14, 16:14

British carriers seem to have all left the factory painted "green" with any changes in colour being applied afterwards. My understanding is that Canadian ones did too.

Rick, the Scout is KG3, matched to original paint found under fittings. I can point you in the right direction if you like? It's not a colour that can be mixed just from a modern code.

eddy8men · #13 11-12-14, 20:34

thanks fella's so it's KG3, good I will get some ordered tomorrow.
ben I was going to order the paint from R and R services and have been quoted£45 for 5 litres which seemed a fair price, have you tried them before ?

cheers

rick

universalgrl · #14 12-12-14, 00:56

The federal color standards were based on WW II colors.
Testors camo model paints were based on these colors.
My MK I carrier still has some original paint on the front plates and its a match for FS 34087 olive drab.
http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html

Paints back then were in a nitro celuose based laquer. Any good paint shop should be able to mix a WW II colour in an enamel as long as you have a sample.

Jim Burrill · #15 12-12-14, 02:19

I grew up with petrolium-based enamal paint and lacquer. Water-based paint was only good for interior walls...
Times have changed.
When Mike Starmer sent me a color chip of the green for my Humber A/C I could not find an automotive or industrial paint supplier (here int he US) that could match it.

Then I started to have good luck with painting some ammo boxes with semi-gloss Latex house paint.

While it pains me to say it, I think that the exterior grade latex's are pretty good on the metal vehicles. Since most all of them are garaged, I don't see the chalking and fading Like I did even 10 years ago.

AND, I am finding our favorite WW2 Brit colors on paint chips in Lowes and Martin-Seynour. I think I will use the "Satin" finish for my next paint job....

eddy8men · #16 12-12-14, 10:13

ben just spoke to the guys at R and R services and they don't stock it, can you let me know where you got yours from and the colour code and post it up on this thread for us all. cheers

rick

RichardT10829 · #17 12-12-14, 10:32

Chromadex mate. You want a 10% Matt 222 fast air drying paint.

They have the full range of colours in BS and RAL. But can mix to specific shades.

To my understanding All carriers left in green, later (43) they knocked them out in scc2 dog muck brown.

Ron Pier · #18 12-12-14, 12:04

It's my understanding that the required colour for vehicles to be painted with at the outbreak of war was a mat light Khaki Green colour. My research over many years of motorcycle restorations has led me to realise that the Khaki colour varied considerably though. I have found several samples of original paint inside brake plates and chain covers, NOS parts etc.

The colour can vary from light Khaki, similar to the US Light Olive to a dark Green/Brown colour. I have never found a BS or Ral number and relied purely on mixing Service brown and British Olive Drab in ratios of 25-75, 50-50, or 75-25. To give my collection a range of different colours that I find pleasing.

I know that some guys have spent a lot of time coming up with a " definitive Khaki Green" based on a WW2 sample, but I don't think there is any such thing, but it is always nice to have some proof of an original colour, and therefore achieve the best match to that colour by mixing it yourself or at your local auto paint shop....or Cromadex.

by 1942 Earth or Service Brown was instigated. But of course that also depended on the shades from different manufacturers and the need to use up old stocks of paint by mixing it in with the new colour.

Nothing cast in Stone.

Ron

eddy8men · #19 12-12-14, 14:30

I reckon you hit the nail on the head there ron

and you've given me an idea, the colour looks to me to be a light olive drab and it might be the case that the early carriers used U.S. light olive drab so I've ordered light olive and will try it for a match when it arrives, if it's too light I can easily darken it down with a normal drab green. i'm determined to get the colour spot on !
i'll put the results up next week when I've done the swatch.

thanks for all your help

rick

Ron Pier · #20 12-12-14, 16:00

That's exactly what I would do Rick. By using half dozen jam jars with measures on the outside with felt pen, and adding green and or brown until you have the desired shade with recorded information for your final mix. Usually all the jars can be added back into a 5 litre can without any adverse effect to the final colour. I've done it loads of times, and would undoubtedly find it easier to do than explain it. Ron

RichardT10829 · #21 12-12-14, 16:44

Green carriers are a desease Rick.... Join me....paint it desert colour !

eddy8men · #22 12-12-14, 19:35

my granddad was a sniper on the bren during his time in north Africa so i'd love to paint it sandstone or better still caunter but I am going to be boring and restore it to it's original wartime colour and markings but I have a feeling it never left Canada and was used for training only but you can't win em all.

i'll post up the results of my paint experiment next week, the paint should arrive on tuedsay

rick

RichardT10829 · #23 12-12-14, 20:10

Pretty much guarantee 99% of the carriers went out there never came back... Most got blown to bits... The rest given to the ruskies..

Be true to your heart you know sand is the way to go.....moohahahahahaa

Ben · #24 12-12-14, 21:28

I'm sure R&R paint will work fine.

I only used chromadex as I could match the exact colour as found on the Scout, I was fussy about keeping it as close as possible to the original sample.

I agree with Ron that the exact colour must have varied quite a bit from batch to batch.

eddy8men · #25 13-12-14, 12:05

the thing is I don't think it's KG3 it looks too light to me but without seeing a swatch next to the original colour it's hard to tell.
we'll see next week !

Jim Burrill · #26 13-12-14, 16:00

Oh My! Did I commit sacrilege suggesting using exterior grade latex paint instead of automotive alkyd enamel?

While there are US manufacturers of MILSPEC paint in cammo colors, it is all geared for the US vehicle market - not the Brit colours.

As the old saying goes... "needs must"....

Bruce Parker... the carrier I have to restore was only a few off from yours.... so what color have you determined it should be?

Do you have a chip to send me to match???

Ben · #27 13-12-14, 16:43

Rick, I can't post the mix as Cromadex did that. I just buy the tins to my ratio. If you need it just give me a shout. I guess the Northampton depot will tell the one up your way and mix it for you. Failing that you could order it and I could send it up.
I could spray a bit on a sample to post up??? You could check it next to your carrier that way.

Ron Pier · #28 13-12-14, 17:45

I post these pictures purely as a colour guide and a rough indication through the lens of a camera in different lights. This particular bike came to me in hand painted black. but inside and underneath everything was clean, unmolested 1940 KG. The headlamp shell is original KG (not the rim). I'm not boasting when I say that the colour I mixed was spot on. I even have a swatch from Lex Schmidt in NL who has research KG3 for the fleet of Big 4's that he and friends own, and it's almost the same colour as mine.

We seem to associate military vehicles with Army Green, all my Dinky toys as a kid were green. But it seems to me that there was an awful lot of light to mid greeny brown, even more earth or service brown and ending up with Olive Green towards the end of things. Ron

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #29 13-12-14, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

We seem to associate military vehicles with Army Green, all my Dinky toys as a kid were green. But it seems to me that there was an awful lot of light to mid greeny brown, even more earth or service brown and ending up with Olive Green towards the end of things. Ron

Associating colour is a bias. In Canada almost all CMP's, if they weren't painted red, were not their original khaki or brown. They had been repainted a 1950's era gloss black green as per M series vehicles. It was so common that many took it for granted CMP's should be dark green and questioned if they saw one in an original colour.

chris vickery · #30 13-12-14, 22:12

The colour arguement goes round and round and I suspect it always will.
Doesn't matter if it is the Jeep police or any other group in the MV hobby.
I think one of the main issues is in making a determination as to when and where colours were changed. Then there is the issue of one manufacturer to another.
The problem with using old paint chips to colour match is the fact that even the colour on NOS parts has deteriorated with time.
I would suspect that the truest way to achieve original colours would be to obtain original chemical formulations. Even the bases would require original composition, not to mention the exact mixes.
Somewhere I have an original formula for Lightstone which needed to be calculated into modern measures.
Back in the 40's CIL used a measurement called "dial" which does not translate exactly into today's measurements.