Another Indian Pattern odd job: "C291QH 4x4 FAT for Royal Engineers"

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Seeing the low-mounted radiator reminded me of another Indian Pattern odd job: the so-called Indian pattern FATs with "armoured cab":

indian_fat_5.jpg indian_fat_4.jpg odd jod2.jpg

Note: I don't think it was actually a Cab 13 clad in armour, but rather a makeshift Indian cab. The cab looks too thin for armour plating, it is not rivetted and there is no armour in front of the radiator.

But I am now pretty much convinced these were based on the C291QH chassis. Just compare the level of the front edge of the cab to the top of the radiator on the bare chassis:

knilarmouredcmpskit (1).jpg ND-103.jpg

The makeshift Indian sheetmetal cab makes sense when out of 480 chassis delivered a number were not converted into the Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Truck. Not having any cab components, they must have made up a cab from mostly flat segments, and fitted it with the cargo body normally found on the Indian Pattern FAT.

[Lynn Eades]

Hanno, there were 3 designs, with the latest having a near vertical (short) steering column. The driver sat between the chassis rails (the floor fixed to the underside of the chassis???) and the master cylinders being above the hanging clutch and brake pedals. (hydraulic throttle as well)Low silhouette was "in", in 1943. The C291QH was 42-43 101 1/4wb.(third design) (modified FAT Chassis) Only two fuel tanks.
The 1941 C19QHF was134 1/4wb. Modified from CO1QF 3 ton Chassis. This had 4 full sized fuel tanks.
The 2nd design (1941-42) C191QRF was also 101 1/4 wb. 2 tanks.
1st design had 16" wheels the 2nd and 3rd designs had 20" wheels.
"H" is for Hanno!!!
I hope that helps a little.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, there were 3 designs, with the latest having a near vertical (short) steering column. The driver sat between the chassis rails (the floor fixed to the underside of the chassis???) and the master cylinders being above the hanging clutch and brake pedals. (hydraulic throttle as well)Low silhouette was "in", in 1943.

[snip]

The 2nd design (1941-42) C191QRF was also 101 1/4 wb. 2 tanks.
1st design had 16" wheels the 2nd and 3rd designs had 20" wheels.

From the article "India's Ford Wheeled Carriers" in Wheels & Tracks issue 42, we learn that various Marks of Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern were based on the following chassis:

C011QRF:
- Mark II: originally with GM banjo-type axles and 9.00-16 tyres
- Mark IIA: when quantity production got underway Ford split type axles and 10.50-16 tyres were installed
- Mark IIB

C191QRF: wider axles (78") with 6" front steering ends, 15" diameter brake drums and brake booster, heavier springs, hydraulic clutch actuation, 10.50-20 RF tyres
- Mark IIC

Note: the Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, NZ Pattern was fitted on the C191QRF chassis as well

C291QR: rearranged driver’s position with centrally mounted near-vertical driver’s position
- Mark IV

ND-124.jpg ND-125.jpg ND-128.jpg
ND-126.jpg ND-127.jpg

Legend:
C - Canadian design;
0 - 1940 model year; 1 – 1941 model year; 2 – 1942 model year
1 - engine type; intention was to fit all Canadian Ford Special Pattern MV’s with the 85-bhp engine, hence the “1”. The 95-bhp engine was finally standardized but he “1” stuck until the models were changed for 1941 and the figure became “9” as it should have been.
1 - wheelbase (101");
Q - four-wheel drive;
R - rear mounted engine;
F – right hand drive.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

The 1941 C19QHF was134 1/4wb. Modified from CO1QF 3 ton Chassis. This had 4 full sized fuel tanks.

Lynn,

Indeed, see pictures of the C19QHF below. Do you know for what type of vehicle this chassis was used or intended?

Hanno


ND-103.jpg ND-104.jpg ND-105.jpg ND-107.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, there were 3 designs, with the latest having a near vertical (short) steering column. The driver sat between the chassis rails (the floor fixed to the underside of the chassis???) and the master cylinders being above the hanging clutch and brake pedals. (hydraulic throttle as well)Low silhouette was "in", in 1943. The C291QH was 42-43 101 1/4wb.(third design) (modified FAT Chassis) Only two fuel tanks.
The 1941 C19QHF was134 1/4wb. Modified from CO1QF 3 ton Chassis. This had 4 full sized fuel tanks.
The 2nd design (1941-42) C191QRF was also 101 1/4 wb. 2 tanks.
1st design had 16" wheels the 2nd and 3rd designs had 20" wheels.
"H" is for Hanno!!!
I hope that helps a little.

Lynn,

It’s certainly helps. I can place the C191QRF and C19QHF chassis – see above.

But where does your reference to C291QH come from? Or were you referring to the C291QR chassis, which was the third design for the wheeled carrier.

If you have a reference C291QH does it support - or reject - the evidence presented here that the C291QH was intended to be used as the chassis for an armoured vehicle?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Lauren Child]

This might help - a hand written note in one copy of the Indian training manual.
image.jpg

Also, this page
image.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thank you Lauren! I take it these are the pages you referred to in Driver handbook scans and photocopies?

Originally Posted by Lauren Child

This might help - a hand written note in one copy of the Indian training manual.

In the top right hand section I think I read "stripped chassis"? But what is written exactly after the "H" (on the left below the entry for "W")?!?

Note: the "W" for 15-cwt is interesting.

Also, this page

The subject C291QH chassis is listed as a 1942 "stripped C011QF chassis", i.e. stripped FAT chassis of which at least the winch was stripped (see "-" in column "Winch").

Great stuff!

[Lauren Child]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Thank you Lauren! I take it these are the pages you referred to in Driver handbook scans and photocopies?


In the top right hand section I think I read "stripped chassis"? But what is written exactly after the "H" (on the left below the entry for "W")?!?

Note: the "W" for 15-cwt is interesting.


The subject C291QH chassis is listed as a 1942 "stripped C011QF chassis", i.e. stripped FAT chassis of which at least the winch was stripped (see "-" in column "Winch").

Great stuff!

It is indeed!

The writing for the H on the right is really difficult to make out, so here is a closeup in the hopes that somebody on here can work it out. As it says Stripped on the typewritten page that may be it. On the left side it says "also 160".