1953 m38a1 cdn

[BCA]

Frank,
My posting was not clear: I was referring to all M38 and M38A1 jeeps with CFR's of the format YY-33xxx; not just Willys. I propose that a block of CFR's ending in 3xxx was used for a variety of general uses: initially for Canada's 1951 Willys jeeps and later possibly for Ford jeeps that may have had special equipment added or had been rebuilt and assigned a new CFR.
There are several photos of M38's with recoiless rifles in Germany in the 1960's with CFR's: 51-33293, 51-33368 etc.: most certainly Willys M38.
There are at least three 1951 Willys M38's in Ontario with 51-33xxx.
Chris Vickery posted on MLU of his Willys M38A1: 53-33136.

[BCA]

Bernard, I did try PM and email regarding your serial number plate. ... Brian

[wingnut]

Hi Brian thankyou for the pics .Have resent my email it may explain the difference.Thanks again . Best regards. Bernard.

[David Dunlop]

Brian.

Interesting idea about a 'reserved' block of numbers for some of these 1/4-tons, but it might also be explained just as well by introducing an oddball block of 1/4-tons into the equation.

My old M38CDN was a 1952 Ford Canada unit serial F100187 and CFR 52-30196, so it was very early in the system. Odds are both Ford and the CFR Number assignments started with a "…01" point and would run sequentially from there as needed. I think this CFR Number system came into effect at around the same time as the introduction of the M-Series fleet to the Canadian military.

The M38's in particular get messy because so many of them here in Canada had Southwind Heater systems installed. Part of that process required the data plates be removed from the dash panel and mounted on the windscreen defroster box. When these vehicles surplussed out, the heater equipment was stripped out and the data plates lost. I remember two huge M38 auctions here in Manitoba: one at Shilo and one at Kapyong. Missing data plates were more common than vehicles with them.

It might be useful to see if the CFR Number system for 1/4-tons continued into the M151 fleet and if the numbers look like they might have continued in sequence. If so, perhaps, before the M151's became available in quantity, the Canadian military discovered they were short 1/4-tons in their fleet for whatever reason. As a stop gap until M151 numbers increased, they bought from the USA, or elsewhere, a block of the cheapest 1/4-tons they could quickly get their hands on to equip as needed for a short period of time. This could explain a bunch of very early vehicles being on record with unusually high CFR Numbers. Also, I recall militarized CJ5's being in the Canadian vehicle mix at one point. Why i do not know, but did they also bear the CFR Numbers and how sequential were they to the list?

Not sure that makes sense, but thought it worth tossing out there.

Just another thought. Any one know what the production numbers are for the M38CDN, M38A1CDN, CDN2. CDN3? If that number totals 3,000 plus, it takes us into the CFR Number range where we see the anomaly.

Cheers,


David

[rob love]

David
The CAR numbers for the 50s Jeeps started in the 30000 range. The CFRs for the 1967 and later Jeeps, including the M151A2s, started in the 07700 range, and ran until the 09999 number was reached. After that, the remaining M151A2s were given a small block somewhere in the 20,000 range.
More precisely, the ranges on the later ones were as follows:
Cdn2: 07700-08499
Cdn 3: 08500-09095
M151A2: 09096-09860 then 22350-22519

[David Dunlop]

Nice information, Rob. Thanks. That would leave more than enough wiggle room for the consideration of the special block of numbers Brian is trying to figure out.


David

[BCA]

David,
Thanks for the comments on your early Ford M38CDN. I gather you no,longer have it but any chance you recorded the delivered date. Being an early serial and CFR number it probably did not have the CFR stamped on the front left frame rail but only had it as a painted stencil either on the hood or below the doorway openings. The CFR could also be determined from the ownership which was generated from the original government bill of sale.
In addition to the poor correlation between the Ford serial and the subsequently assigned CFR number, there is not a exact sequence between the Ford serial number and the " delivered date". A reasonable explanation is that the " delivered date" was assigned after the jeep passed inspection which might be days or weeks after it came off the assembly line.
Years ago Rob Grieve (Ontario) published in CMP Magazine his extensive list of data that he had observed or collected about Canadian M38's. Colin Stevenson (British Columbia) has collected similar data and some information is posted on Wes Knettle's willysmjeeps.com site.
I have been expanding Rob's information for several years and am always interested in additional M38CDN serial numbers, delivered dates and CFR numbers. The goal is to come up with a more accurate sorry of Canadian M38 production. Given the lack of historical data, the next best research tool is to document existing jeeps. .... Brian

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

It might be useful to see if the CFR Number system for 1/4-tons continued into the M151 fleet and if the numbers look like they might have continued in sequence. If so, perhaps, before the M151's became available in quantity, the Canadian military discovered they were short 1/4-tons in their fleet for whatever reason. As a stop gap until M151 numbers increased, they bought from the USA, or elsewhere, a block of the cheapest 1/4-tons they could quickly get their hands on to equip as needed for a short period of time. This could explain a bunch of very early vehicles being on record with unusually high CFR Numbers. Also, I recall militarized CJ5's being in the Canadian vehicle mix at one point. Why i do not know, but did they also bear the CFR Numbers and how sequential were they to the list?

Interesting to read about the militarised CJ-5's in Canadian service. I suspect they were bought from Willys / Kaiser, rather than through the US military procurement system like the M151. Countries like Holland, Israel and Switserland used militarised civilian jeeps, and I suspect there were many more "civilian" jeeps used by the military than we suspect. Since the jeep was a military vehicle by design, the civilian and military specs are not far off from each other so it is difficult to recognise a militarised civilian jeep among mil-spec jeeps anyway

H.

[David Dunlop]

Hanno: I think the CJ-5's might have come into the system post Willys/Kaiser. Possibly American Motors or even the Chrysler Group. I recall seeing one parked on base one day with metallic blue paint showing through the then military 'colour du jour'. Some slightly larger (CJ-7's???) might also have been obtained around the same time.

Brian: I cannot put my hands on the date for my first M38CDN, but it was definitely recorded. For sure it should be in an old copy (MVCC Era) Directory from the 80's if you have access to one. You were correct, no CFR was ever stamped onto the frame for this one. It still had all original applications of paint and sand stuck to it, right back to factory. All CFR's were located under the door wells on either side: Roman Style numbers in the early years and then switching to a slightly smaller format Gothic. No Tire Pressure info was ever applied to it anywhere, during it's service life. Western Command decals fore and aft early, later replaced by Mobile Command. Under the hood, centre right was a big stencil in 1/2" lettering in red paint regarding antifreeze data. Command decals on the back were on the bumperettes and on the front moved between the driver's side windscreen and the flat of the hood near the driver's side windscreen block over time.

For what it might be worth, my second M38CDN had the following data:

Serial Number: F-100349
Engine Number: RMC 101585
Contract: E-20 LV7 742 ARMY
Built: 04 August 1952
CFR Number: 52-30367

When disposed of in 1971, the following PCC Stencil was applied to the hood:

PCC BMS L 13/71

Sold this one about 10 years ago into Ontario somewhere.

Enough, or too much??? :roll eyes


David

[rob love]

I never saw militarised CJ5s in Cdn service. There were some CJ6s back in the day, but they were painted in the old lincoln commercial green, same as the panel vans. There were also some Jeep Commandoes. We used them as training aids in Borden after their regular service had ended. They were purely commercial trucks, with no blackout lighting or other military features.

What David may be thinking of was the 1982 and 1983 CJ7 fleet, which was procured initially for the armoured militia because the M38A1Cdn2 and 3 were getting too unreliable to depend on to provide training. Later there was another small purchase of 1985 for the militia service battalions. Why is a mystery, since the Iltis was ready to be released and all the CJ7s became excess to entitlement. The CJ7s were numbered in the next sequential block of available CFR numbers as they came into service, and were not related to the earlier 1/4 ton CFRs. They did have the next block or ERNs though, which was 30106. C30105 was the earlier M151A2, and the M38 family covered C30100 to C30104. Iltis ended up as C30108. There were some Jeep YJs bought that may have used the 30107 code, but I can't be sure of that.

The 30 family of ERNs was supposed to be for SMP vehicles, however that does not explain the C30-656 number on the attached DJ5 data summary, except to note that the C30 portion appears to be corrected from C31, which would have been correct for a commercial vehicle. Nowadays the C306XX block is used for light armour like the AVGP or the old M113A2.

[David Dunlop]

Must have been a CJ7 that I saw then, Rob. It was a right rear corner view jammed in with a bunch of other equipment at MacGregor Armoury.

David

[BCA]

Hi David,
Yes from MVCC/MVPA D4 Directory: F-100187 3-26-52 52-30196
D5 Directory: F-100349 no date 52-30367
You say the date for the later M38 was 04 August 52 however from nearby serial numbers I strongly suspect your date actually read: 4-8-52 = April 8 1952. It is a common mistake to mix up the MM-DD-YY and you interpreted it as Aug.4 rather than April 8. Typical August 1952 delivered dates were for serial numbers much higher serial numbers in the range of F-101500 to F101701.
Again I will repeat that the sequence of Ford serial numbers broadly, but not exactly matched the sequence of delivered dates. I surmise that the delivered date was not assigned until the jeep had been inspected and approved.
As an M38CDN enthusiast my eyes are not rolling at these details; I love these details!
.. Brian

[David Dunlop]

Glad you found the old directory, Brian. Mine are around somewhere, but then so are tons of other stuff it seems! Thanks also for spotting the date switch. I will amend my notes for the second M38CDN accordingly. Hate numbered dates when two of the three numbers are 12 or lower! Wish I had kept a journal for the first M38CDN, but at least I learned from the mistake for later projects.

Stay warm and keep in touch!


Cheers,


David

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

I never saw militarised CJ5s in Cdn service. ...

Maybe not the vehicles themselves, but sometimes spare parts. As you know the CJ5 front fender has a detail reinforcing "rib" that has a large flat spot for a reflector, not found on the M38A1 part. A part is a part is a part at a certain point in the lifespan of a commercial pattern vehicle. (Not telling you anything you haven't taught us on this forum already.)

[chris vickery]

Frank
Pertaining to the "cool" Norway paint scheme, I have seen it on the cover of M38A1 Jeeps in Canadian Service.
Was it ever ascertained as to what the exact camo colours were?
I assume the jeep was likely in original 1950s semi gloss sprayed over with two colours of flat?
To me it appears to be sand base with black or green camo.

[Frank v R]

the one I had appeared to be a Blue with Tan , much as the front cover of the book, I wish I had known when I had the vehicle, I would have kept it,

[chris vickery]

Frank
Is it possible that the blue colour was flat black that was washed out over
Time? I know on one of my wrecks the black is almost a grey blue...