New Armoured Vehicle in Pickering

[Scott Bentley]

MRAP = Mine Resistant Ambush Protected

It's a class of vehicle which that one clearly is. Get over it.

EDIT to add:

Let me quantify some of my earlier comments so I don't come across as sounding too harsh.

The protective level of an armoured vehicle is that in which it provides to the occupants, i.e., from small arms, light anti-armour weapons etc. It has sweet diddly to do with what the crew is carrying or whats mounted on it. When the term MRAP is used, the first thing that comes to mind are FPI Cougar's and Buffalo's. They merely represent the top end of the MRAP scale. Virtually anything that is factory armoured and militarized these days is an MRAP (save for the light weight stuff like armoured SUVs used for VIPs). That thing isn't an up-armoured SUV nor is it a Brinks Truck... That thing is built to withstand something stronger; think armoured piercing and your getting close.

A threat assessment is used to determine what weapon systems and tactics could be reasonably expected from the "threat". This then allows the organization to determine everything from how high the perimeter fence should be to what equipment or weapons are required to defeat that threat. Following that, "needs" comes in the form of a Statement of Requirements which is then used to shop around, in this case for a Baby MRAP. It is not about just buying something because its cool, available, someone else uses it, or looks threatening. Its about equipping to meet the threat. This is why I mentioned that "I'd love to see the threat assessment that validated OPG's need for baby MRAPs (complete with cupola)". I'm not advocating for or against it, i'm just curious as a citizen of Canada.

A few years ago I was part of the military working group that determined the Tactics, Techniques and Procedures for EROC. If you're not familiar, EROC was the program that saw Canada purchase Cougars and Buffalos (and Huskys) for use in the opening of dangerous routes in Afghanistan. Additionally, I completed significant training on Security Engineering with US Army Corp of Engineers. This is where my babble about threat assessments come from. So, admittedly I know dick all about Nuclear Plants and Policing, however I am coming from a college level background of securing Vital Points and patrolling with MRAPs.

Good day to you.

[45jim]

Scott you don't come off harsh, just opinionated and uninformed. Bang your head a few times, it'll work itself out.

The MRAP is a unique class of vehicles, complete with its own "statement of requirements" that the vehicle manufacturers used to develop these specialized vehicles. Your statement"Virtually anything that is factory armoured and militarized these days is an MRAP" is ridiculous, if everything else was an MRAP why would they have spent billions of dollars building and deploying a whole new class of vehicles? Clearly it was done because the MRAP requirement was unique and no vehicle at the time offered the protection the Military required. It was also so specialized that most were broken up in Iraq and AF and not kept in the inventory of any major country. Pretty much useless anywhere else, hence they are no longer manufactured, so nothing today is MRAP.

Having worked closely for many years with the Israeli company that developed the Sand Cat I can tell you this is not an MRAP, even in their marketing material it states "the Sand Cat uses lessons learned from MRAP development in its design" it does not state anywhere that the Sand Cat meets the protection criteria of the MRAP, JLTV or MATV.

If you're curious about the basic level of protection, have someone go to the weld seam on the vehicle (next time they are getting fuel), measure the thickness of the plate and look up MIL-STD 46100. This is an open source document that will tell you the basic level of protection of the armour plate used in construction.

From their brochure (which I have in my desk)....

"The SandCat is manufactured using a standard, factory-installed 'A kit' armour system, which is low in weight and enables less consumption of fuel. It is the base-level metal composite unit. The 'B kit' armour is a composite-ceramic armoured solution fitted in addition to the 'A kit' for a higher ballistic protection. These kits are flexible enough to be assembled in the field."

Your comment regarding the level of protection of this vehicle as seen filling up (no "B" kit) is wildly optimistic, just saying.... your making an uninformed guess. Back in the day we called that "speaking out of one's ass" not sure what they call it nowadays.

The protection level of a military vehicle is not just based on crew protection. It is designed to keep a combat vehicle in combat, so weapon systems, ammunition, fuel and engines are all protected. And in security vehicles where its often a low paying-low skill job, they don't want some dufus playing quick draw shooting a grandma through the wall of the "armoured car" so its written right into the ballistic spec that whatever weapon they are issued is the base level of protection.

Patrolling in a vehicle does not give you any insight into how it was designed, tested or manufactured, it just lets you know if its a POS or not. It does however improve your patrolling skills, which is the name of the game as a soldier. Soldiers don't even know the level of protection their vehicles are manufactured to.

As for the "threat assessment" rant, and how that relates to vehicles and armour your still pretty much in the "don't know dick" category. As part of a working group all you get to do is make a "wish list" of what you want and send it into the void. I was on the working group for the Coyote and what a POS that turned out to be. I (and others) really wanted a small, fast Recce vehicle with a 20mm cannon and good optics. Not at all what we ended up with and too many crews paid the ultimate price in that thing. Being on a working group teaches you nothing, but it does give you a warm and fuzzy because someone asked your opinion.

The reason I'm so opinionated about armour is that as a retired armoured crewman I entered the armour business full time in 1996 developing and making Coyote ceramic armour kits and have been at it ever since. I don't spend much time speculating on armour, I go to the range and shoot. As they say one test is worth a thousand "educated" opinions.


There is noting "op-sec" in these statements.

[Scott Bentley]

My experience didn't come from sitting behind a desk here in Canada Jim. It started in a Mamba in Yugoslavia and ended in an RG in Kandahar. Regardless, you come off like a bitter retired Corporal.

Anyway, heres my M151A2 parked between two MRAPs that are currently in service along with many others here in Canada.


Good luck to you and your ceramic tiles.

[45jim]

My point exactly, you don't have any experience with armour technology other than driving around in an armoured vehicle. However that total lack of technical experience (or good judgement) didn't stop you from standing on your soapbox pretending its a subject for which you could offer intelligent comment, you just believed everyone here is as ignorant on the subject as you are and you could tout yourself as the sme. I'm sure Justin Trudeau could employ such bullshit in Ottawa.

I also patrolled in Bosnia but not in a well protected Mamba but in a shitty old white painted Cougar with no add-on armour. Doesn't make me unique, thousands of others served there and no, I didn't retire as a corporal but had I what difference would that have made? Your a pretty small man if you think rank is a measure of worth, lots of people promoted two steps beyond their level of competence in any Army. Perhaps that's a soft spot in your case?

Bitter? No, I just don't suffer fools.

Nice 151 though, I guess its not worth anything as it didn't serve in AF better trade it for an Iltis or something.

[cliff]

OK time to stop posting replies like the ones above guys.

CALM down and let the matter drop or I will start deleting posts OK?

Cheers
Cliff

[Perry Kitson]

Not wanting to flog a dead horse, but I just have to get back to some comments about Ontario's nuclear power boondoggle.
OPG has always spent every penny it has made. Outlandish bonuses, ridiculous wages and pay increases compared to the private sector, and my favorite, moving compensation payments. All the while never setting aside a single dollar to pay for the costs of re-tubing or de-commissioning(with the Pickering station slated for shutdown in 2020, costs of de-commissioning are estimated at 20-40 billion dollars, all from the tax payer-still think nuclear energy is cheapest???). They have always relied on the taxpayer to fund what any other business would have to save for. One only needs to read the Ontario Auditor Generals report and you will become instantly suicidal. People being paid between $50,000 and $380,000 to cover moving costs of VOLUNTARY moves, even some that were farther away from the facility they worked at!! Data entry clerks making $40 per hour, when the provincial private sector average is between $14-$18 per hour. As for security, threat assessments have been done on the effects of a tsunami!( at a cost of ??? ). I think I will go find some rope now.

Perry

Oh yes, I am certainly in the "over the top camp"

[chris vickery]

Perry
I work in and around the power utilities sector for one of the largest electrical companies in the world.
I agree that some aspects of OPG seem ludicrous, but wages are on par with every other generating facility I have been at, coast to coast.
If you think OPG pays their nuclear workers too much, you should see what Bruce Power (privately owned and operated) pays theirs ( a fair bit more).
I am not sure why the pay inequity between utilities and the private sector.
In actuality, maybe it is the private sector that are underpaid?
I do know that a lot of time and effort is put into training employees, whose job it is is to put reliable energy into our homes and businesses 24/7.
As an example, the linesman who is hanging out of a bucket truck on Christmas Day in freezing weather so you and your family can enjoy your Holiday. The operators who maintain generation stations year round, on 12hr shift, weekends and holidays so we have heat and light.
Paid too much? I suppose it is relative and depends on where you are looking at it from...