M-38 CDN (history)

[BCA]

Hello Gaetan,
Thanks for the posting. This will be a good start to discussing the M38CDN. There are some comments I will have but need to get things in order before posting. .... Brian

[BCA]

I have seen a photocopy of a Month-End Serial Number Report for Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited. The section titled "1952 - - M-38 Production - (Month-end)" has month-end serial numbers: January F-100100. February F-100234. March F-100399. April F-100682. May F-100997. June F-101247. July F-101632. August F-101764. September F-101935. October F-102051. November F-102135 - End of M38-11/27/52. F-200041 - M38A1 - 11/28/52. For December there are handwritten notes: 750 Jobs - Built Dec. 1952 and Jan. 1953. See Jan. 1953 Records. Last 224 Jobs with short dipstick."
So it appears that the last M38, serial F-102135 was produced on 11/27/52. However the data plate would show the "Delivered Date" not date of production.
For instance, dealing with the first 100 produced by January month-end: I have delivered dates for 14 M38CDN below F-100100 (produced by January month-end): the earliest delivered date is February 4, 1952 and the latest was February 27. The delayed dates of delivery were probably due to final touches to bring the jeep up to standard or until the inspector had time to examine it.
So my conclusion: Ford knew exactly how many M38's were made each month, each had a serial number but the stamped "delivered date" was delayed, often up to a month or more.
Unfortunately the procedure of stamping the CFR number on the left front frame does not seem to have been implemented until about 300 or so were made. As a result confirmed CFR's for the first 100 M38CDN's are very rare. Only a surviving stencil or old paperwork can confirm a CFR for very early M38CDN's.
Any help is appreciated from M38CDN owners: Ford serial #, delivered date, inspectors marking, contract number (639 vs 742), and CFR # would help me clarify the M38CDN story. Your information is confidential with me unless you are willing to share publically, but it will help me fill in the information gaps and broaden the story.
Another discussion all together is the Canadian-used Willys M38: typically 10-51 delivery date, serial numbers 37xxx to 38xxx, usually with very high CFR's : 52-33xxxx. .......... Brian

[BCA]

GJG/Gaetan,
Ah, facts are hard to come by: I believe there is an innocent mistake in the following article that you quoted.
1- On FORD OF CANADA HERITAGE site:
"Even after the war, Ford of Canada filled a large order of military Jeeps. Production took place in late 1951 through 1955. Built under license from Willys, they were known as M-38 Ford trucks. During 1952, a total of 2438 were made.
From: "Exclusive & Exciting Cars & Trucks Built by Ford of Canada"

I think that the 2438 vehicles made in 1952 were not all "M-38 Ford trucks". There were only 2135 M38's made from January to November 1952 (none in December). I believe that the "2438" total in the article lumps in 303 M38A1's that would have been made in Nov. and Dec. 1952 with the balance of the Dec+Jan published total of 750, being made in January 1953.
Just a bit of nit-picking to clarify a published "fact" that easily gets repeated.

[GJG]

Hi Brian. My remark about the unknown exact number of jeep is for 1951. At least 35 were received in 1951 by the Canadian Army since mine is stamped with that number. The back plate for the data plates has 4 holes. My dash had only 3 holes and none was threaded so it seems that there was never any data plates on that jeep. I know it because I had to drill 1 hole to add reproduction data plates.
Thanks for explaining the production difference between Ford Canada and Robert Grieve.
Below, the photo of the CAR number 51-30035 and of my M-38 CDN (1976 frame-up restauration, still almost stock excepted for 12 V conversion, the addition of the Ramsey winch, double PTO and Warn overdrive).
Gaétan Gagnon

[BCA]

Gaetan, It is interesting that you only found 3 mounting holes for the master plate that normally holds the brass dash plates. Perhaps one of the sheet metal screws was broken-off in the hole?
Your CFR number 51-30035 strongly leads me to believe that you have a Willys Overland M38 that was delivered about or after October 1951 (10-51). I have information on at least 6 Willys Overland M38's that were delivered to the Canada. While my information is incomplete, in general:
1. Their serial numbers ranged from 37378 to 38852.
2. The only documented delivered date is 10-51.
3. the CFR's are often 51-33xxx but also like 51-30xxx and 52-30xxx.
4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
5. There are variations in the brass dash plates that deviate from standard American Willys M38 plates: there can be either "M38" or "M38 CDN" as model numbers. Also there are references to the Canadian "Operators Manual CDN OM 9-804" and "with Canadian Supplements" on the data plates.

For those of you with Canadian Willys M38's, I am curious to know if there is a there a patent plate on the wheel well behind the passenger seat?

In summary, my opinion is that:
1. Canada received numerous Willys Overland M38's in the latter part of 1951. The brass dash plates often differed the from typical American M38 Willys plates with the addition of references to M38CDN and to Canadian publications.
2. The first 100 Ford M38CDN's were made in January 1952. The earliest documented delivered date is 2-4-52 (F-100006:February 4th, 1952). 2165 units were produced, ending November 27, 1952 but with delivered dates extending until Feb. 25 1953.
There were 2 contacts: Contract E-20 LV7 639 ARMY extended to include roughly the first 300 M38CDN's. The balance were contract E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Other than the data plates reference I have not been able to determine any difference between the jeeps of these 2 contracts. It might be relevant that approximately the first 300 or Ford M38's did not have the CFR stamped on the front left frame rail but documented simply by a painted stencil on the body.
Any additional information would be appreciated: I have a detailed questionnaire that I can PM to anyone with a Canadian M38.
........... Brian

I have compiled a questionnaire of M38CDN details and appreciated any new information. PM me for details if you have an M38CDN. ......... Brian

[rob love]

Originally Posted by BCA

4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
Brian

23 Base Workshop was a joint British/Canadian workshop in Germany. They would do assembly line rebuilds on the various fleets of vehicles. There is an article about it in an old EME digest here:
http://www.emebranchgem.ca/CMFiles/Journal/2_2008_e.pdf

[BCA]

Great information on 23 Base Workshop. Photos of 3 M38's in Germany in 1961 submitted to CMP Magazine by Steve Hawken show Canadian M38's with 51-33xxx CFR numbers which I strongly suspect were from the first batch of Canadian M38's made by Willys and delivered to Canada in 1951, prior to the Ford production. Maybe an unusual number of the early Willys M38's ended up in Germany?

[GJG]

Originally Posted by BCA

Gaetan, It is interesting that you only found 3 mounting holes for the master plate that normally holds the brass dash plates. Perhaps one of the sheet metal screws was broken-off in the hole?
Your CFR number 51-30035 strongly leads me to believe that you have a Willys Overland M38 that was delivered about or after October 1951 (10-51). I have information on at least 6 Willys Overland M38's that were delivered to the Canada. While my information is incomplete, in general:
1. Their serial numbers ranged from 37378 to 38852.
2. The only documented delivered date is 10-51.
3. the CFR's are often 51-33xxx but also like 51-30xxx and 52-30xxx.
4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
5. There are variations in the brass dash plates that deviate from standard American Willys M38 plates: there can be either "M38" or "M38 CDN" as model numbers. Also there are references to the Canadian "Operators Manual CDN OM 9-804" and "with Canadian Supplements" on the data plates.

For those of you with Canadian Willys M38's, I am curious to know if there is a there a patent plate on the wheel well behind the passenger seat?

In summary, my opinion is that:
1. Canada received numerous Willys Overland M38's in the latter part of 1951. The brass dash plates often differed the from typical American M38 Willys plates with the addition of references to M38CDN and to Canadian publications.
2. The first 100 Ford M38CDN's were made in January 1952. The earliest documented delivered date is 2-4-52 (F-100006:February 4th, 1952). 2165 units were produced, ending November 27, 1952 but with delivered dates extending until Feb. 25 1953.
There were 2 contacts: Contract E-20 LV7 639 ARMY extended to include roughly the first 300 M38CDN's. The balance were contract E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Other than the data plates reference I have not been able to determine any difference between the jeeps of these 2 contracts. It might be relevant that approximately the first 300 or Ford M38's did not have the CFR stamped on the front left frame rail but documented simply by a painted stencil on the body.
Any additional information would be appreciated: I have a detailed questionnaire that I can PM to anyone with a Canadian M38.
........... Brian

I have compiled a questionnaire of M38CDN details and appreciated any new information. PM me for details if you have an M38CDN. ......... Brian

Hi Brian
There was no broken screw and the 3 holes were not threaded.
Army procedure is strict. If my jeep is correctly stamped on top of front left rail, how can you accept 51-33xxx (maybe related to US base in Canada?) as CAR number or that jeep stamped with 52-xxxxx was delivered in -51 or that the army forgot to stamp 300 jeep later. A CAR number coming only from painted stencil is not very reliable.
Gaétan

[BCA]

Hello Gaetan,
There are three places on the jeep body pre-punched for data plates. These holes are not threaded but instead use a 3/8" No, 6 sheet metal screw: 4 holes for the data plate mounting plate (on the dash), 4 holes for the patent plate (on wheel well behind the passenger seat) and 4 holes for the fording control plate. I think you mean that there were only 3 holes present for installing the data plate mounting plate on the dash panel.
My guess would be that this was a factory mistake: one of the 4 holes was not punched correctly. When the mounting plate was attached to your dash only 3 screws were used. Later the data plates went missing: lost or stolen.
It is hard to imagine a jeep being produced without a set of data plates. I have information on 9 other Willys M38 Canadian jeeps. They have Willys serial numbers between 37853 and 38852. This is in the range of October 1951 Willys M38 production. I have a note that you mentioned your M38 ownership paper listed the serial number as 38852: A number that makes perfect sense for an October 1951 Willys M38, Toledo Ohio, delivered to Canada!
...... Brian

[Stephen Rainforth]

I am restoring M-38cdn with serial #F-102083 build date is 11-18-52 and contract# looks like E-20 LV7 742 Army.I know the Jeep came from B.C Regiment as I was told that and it has the correct painted markings Hood and rear quarter.The stamped CAR# is 52-32008.The paint# on the outside is #52-31293 ?

[BCA]

An M38 CDN was reported years ago by Colin Stevens: 52-32008 and he said there was a photo of it on a 1971 army exercise. He did not report a Ford serial number or date of delivery. Your F-102083 serial with a date of 11-18-52 is consistent with the CFR 52-32008 so the mystery is why someone put a different stencilled CFR on the vehicle. So far I have no reported sightings of an M38 CDN with a stamped CFR number 52-31293. The usual caveat: there is no direct correlation between CFR sequences and Ford serial sequences although there are broad trends. I'm sure you can reach Colin through the Western Command web site; he may have further info. ……… Brian

[BCA]

Lyle, I just noticed your posting about RCEME engine rebuild plates. I have some NOS plates: beautiful quality. $15 plus postage. You can PM me if interested.

Stephen: I see this was your first post! So welcome to MLU.

[rob love]

I don't want to sway this discussion from the excellent information on the M38 and M38A1 serial numbers, production numbers and CAR (CFR) numbers, but I wanted to cross post this list regarding assignment of CAR numbers to various artillery dated October of 51. Note that blocks of CAR numbers from 30001 to 30200, 31001 to 31200, 31400 to 31600 (penned in) and 32001 to 32010 were meant to be assigned to 3.7AA guns with various mountings. I suspect these blocks are a bit wider than the number of guns in service at the time, but it may explain why there could be some gaps in the CFR blocks. It is apparent from some posts in this thread that the M38 CFRs overlapped into these blocks.

[Stephen Rainforth]

Thanks I will
Steve

[John P]

This might have been already mentioned here before but how many M38 CDN's were actully made during the production run in Windsor and what are the numbers for surviving units during and after the Korean war?

[Eric B]

Hello

NO M38's were sent to Korea. We shipped WW2 vintage Jeeps there. Some of these we had to buy from the US as we did not have enough of our own to sent without depleting resources in Canada. Some WW2 CDN contracts were shipped with these as well as trailers.

We did not ship any of the CDN M38's there, but bought from US production directly the M38A1. These we shipped back when the troops came back. The WW2 vintage trailers and jeeps were turned into US supply depots.

Thanks

Eric