15-CWT, 2K1, WIRE 5 Body Details

[David Dunlop]

Sorry Robert.

I should have said the small white fuse box mounted on the right side wall between the two windows. It should have the Wiring Diagram on the inside of the door.


David

[Robert Bergeron]

Keep me posted David.

They would be going to a good home.

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

Here is the data plate of a wire 5 truck currently in unknown hands in Ontario.

My Wire 5 truck is dated from the same month and same year.

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

This nice picture by 8th Hussard shows where the map table would go.

Just underneath the 12 VDC power outlet with the little door with thumbhole in it.

I suggest the tent would extend from the roof lateraly over this workstation.

We see very well the ladder, mast , mudflaps, spare tire .

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

Picture from 8th Hussars Photobucket folder.

[David Dunlop]

I think I may have posted some of these pictures in another thread quite some time ago, but since they relate to this thread (and I rediscovered them again) I thought I would post here.

This is only the second example of the buzzer assembly for the 2K1 WIRE 5 I have ever seen and Bill Gregg was kind enough to lend it to me from his collection in Rockwood many years ago to document. The lens cap is from a 58mm lens for scale purposes. For the record, there are absolutely no maker markings or numbers of any kind anywhere on this buzzer assembly, but I suspect it was a very common commercial item probably used in city street cars or buses prewar, or as residential door buzzers.

I will attach the first three pictures to this post and add a second post with the remaining three photos. This particular buzzer assembly came from a cab that had been painted aluminium inside late in life, hence the weird outer paint job.

The mounting block is solid fir, machined on the backside to match the inside curve of the rear cab corner, behind the co-drivers head. It is secured to the cab by two diagonally positioned hex head bolts which thread into lock nuts set into the two holes shown. The lock nut is still in place in the lower right hole. These lock nuts have a fancy name I cannot recall at the moment, and identical ones are used on the 2K1 Body to anchor the truss head slotted aluminium screws that help secure the roof assembly to the body sides along the roof line, just above the rain gutters. Last I looked, the nuts were still available from SPAE NAUR in Canada.

The buzzer is mounted to the wood block, terminals down, to connect to the wiring coming up from through the floor, that feeds back to the 2K1 Body, up through the conduit behind the front wall plywood of the body and out the passthrough to the lanyard switch mounted on the roof. And before I forget, the Signal Buzzer Switch and the lanyard loops are standard transit bus fittings commonly in use through the 1960's.

The base assembly of the buzzer is all black, with the exception of the circuit plate that is bare metal as shown. The buzzer cover plate is grey. Both colours are of a semi gloss finish. And that thing is loud!

David

[David Dunlop]

The remaining three photos of this buzzer.


David

[Robert Bergeron]

Very nice detail David, thanks.

So the guys in the box could '' buzz'' the driver and say: Oh , we wanna stop and have a beer here...

[RichCam]

David and Robert,

Regarding Picture #3, the dual exhaust Y pipe that protrudes through the floor in the generator closet, that is what the Wire 5 Radio Box has at our shop. We removed it to be able to remove the closet frame such that the paneling is exposed. I'm safe to assume then that this Box was then using 2 chore horse generators?

With regards to the map table, I don't have one but I do have the bracket in place and the 4 angled holes for the support rods.

With regards to the +/- plate on the side. If one leaves the copper bar in place behind the wing nuts, I guess it could be used as an external grounding plate. If you spin the wing nuts off, remove the bar, you could use it as a + and - connector through the wall of the box, like Picture #2. I'm not a radio guy but that would be kind of handy, I think.

That's all for now, Steve is working on the window slider frames, Jim is working on the convoy lights - amazing that they work after 70 years of sitting in the mud and stuff once you change out the bulb. I'm still trying to get a couple of hours of peace and quiet so I can finish wiring the dash.

Let me know what you think!

[David Dunlop]

This particular Signals vehicle is probably the smallest wheeled vehicle used by the Corps with just a crew of four making up the personnel: Wireless Operator, Cypher Clerk, Driver and Co-Driver, which makes it an ideal candidate to better understand how the crew was put together and how it actually functioned.

What I would like to better understand, is whether or not these four positions would actually be filled by specifically trained individuals for each position, or would the crew have been fully inter trained? My civilian gut tells me if all four crew were fully cross trained, it would be the best way to man the vehicle. Any one of the crew could drive as needed, operate the wireless, or perform the code work. You would get the best possible shift rotations and be at a minimum of risk with potential illnesses, or injuries within the crew.

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding the crew would all be RCCS personnel who are seconded to 'XYZ Regiment' to perform that Regiments communication functions.

I would assume that whatever the structure of the crew for this size of vehicle, would just be increased in required numbers for larger vehicles like a Command Low Power, or Command High Power.

If the crew positions were filled by specifically trained personnel, I have a bit of trouble wondering what the driver and co-driver would be doing if the Wireless truck was set up in one fixed location for an extended period of time.

Experts…I await your enlightenment.

David

[Phil Waterman]

Hi David

Really good question about vehicle crew training and duties. Look forward to reading peoples thoughts. Would like to add to the question, how practical was it to operate the radios while the truck is on move?

I've ridden in the back of my C60S radio while it was being driven off road across open ground and it was hard to stay on the seat in the radio box. Cannot imagine trying to operate radios, or ride for any length of time in the box. Would expect the senior guys wanting to ride in the cab.

[David Dunlop]

Oh, She is looking SWEET, Rich!!!

From what I have seen of these bodies, they were all equipped with the same exhaust plumbing in the floor of the Gen Box. A fairly large diameter pipe through the floor to absorb the pressure of two generators running at the same time, with a Y-Fitting at the top end. If I recall correctly, one branch of the Y should point straight up and will take the exhaust feed for the upper, portable Chorehorse. The second branch of the Y will angle outward towards the lower compartment and will take the exhaust for either the second Chorehorse, or Onan. It's all pretty much standard plumbing stuff and adapters or plugs would have been used to connect generators as required.

Underneath the body was a 90 degree elbow and an extension pipe feeding a sausage shaped muffler about 2 to 3 inches in diameter and about 10 inches long. It pointed about 10 degrees aft of perpendicular to the side of the vehicle with the end of the pipe about 2 inches back from the bottom edge of the side of the truck. There may be a bit of a fiddle factor involved with the muffler placement as one has to deal with mud flap and jerry can racks back there. All that equipment had been removed from the bodies I ever examined, but I have seen the identical muffler setup on a couple of Machinery bodies, if that helps at all.

Cheers,


David

[David Dunlop]

I puzzled over the same question from a slightly different angle (pun intended).

It never made sense to me why the poor Cypher Clerk had to sit side saddle in the seat at his work station. Then one Winter's day I was riding the bus on a side seat down one of Winnipeg's pothole breeding streets and more than once was nearly thrown into the isle. For some reason the Cypher Clerks seat came to mind and I realized when on the move, he would be much better off facing forward.

Certainly no reason the wireless could not be worked or at least monitored on the move. Wonder how it's done today?

Keep out of mischief, Phil.


David

[David Dunlop]

Rich.

That is an interesting option for that terminal box. Had forgotten about the little ring tab inside there. Wonder what the heck it was for???

Nice to see you have the paper bin under the Cypher Desk. It was missing from most boxes I ever saw. Popular item it seems.

Do you have the folding Cypher Desk?


David

[rob love]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Rich.

That is an interesting option for that terminal box. Had forgotten about the little ring tab inside there. Wonder what the heck it was for???

David

Perhaps for strain relief? The wires would be tied thru the ring and then terminated to the wingnuts. That way when someone tripped on the wiring, they would not rip out the wires.

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

Richard: Great job !

Following David's question on the role of the crew : Jon Skagfeld told me he was once the driver of such a rig in post-war Canadian Army and that his role was limited to driving and maintaining the generators. The Senior NCO would be in my opinion the only truly cross-trained member of the crew by way of professional progression. The only intergangeable positions i can imagine are the radio operator and the cypher clerk.Anyway, all radio message would have to be encrypted . The Germans were experts at disrupting , intercepting and jamming allied communications . There are horror stories about bad radio procedure by the Canadians in Normandy. War is not like exercices in England . Like i said before , i am no Signals officer, so i stand to be corrected.

Rob : I agree, one loop around the ring will go a long way of preventing an accidental tearing off of the wires.

All in all a fascinating restoration to undertake, a dedicated restorer ( Richard ) and fascinating contributions by MLU members. Thanks to all !

[Jon Skagfeld]

A previous poster wondered what was done for interior heat.

As far back as the late '50s, we had a black stove about 2 1/2 ft high, 3' in diameter, with a wire handle. These were stores issued items. I have no idea how they were used...coal, oil, naptha??? Our time on location was so short that the rad ops just soldiered on.

Note to Richard (which may put to bed all the questions about the 12 v feed): There was a rolled up laminated large diagram showing the WS No 19 vehicle installation which was part of the 19 set stuff that you loaded up at my place.Perhaps reference to it may sort things out.

[David Dunlop]

Over the years, I have had a few people ask if there was a manual for the 20' Vertical Antennae Mast and to my knowledge, there never was one, simply because the 20' Mast was just one part of the Antennae Vertical 34' Steel Mk I Kit.

Thought I would post a couple of pictures from the manual for this kit showing what all went into it. There is a picture of the Base Plate, Vertical Roof there which may help some individuals identify this item at their favourite surplus hangout. The post in the centre of this plate is actually ball shaped to allow for correct vertical orientation of the steel mast on any vehicle roof that is not flat. The ZA No. for this Base Plate is ZA/C 00103 and the Mfg. Part Number is PC 82495C-269.

The Vehicle Mounting Brackets & Hardware for storing the 34' Mast on the 2K1 Wireless Body would not be used as this mounting was factory installed. However these parts would be used on the HUW to mount the mast on the right side of the vehicle, just aft of the Driver's Door.

David

[RichCam]

David,

Thank you for the diagrams. I will print them out and study them in more detail tomorrow morning.

Jon - I will look at the rolled up radio set-up diagram and see if I can decipher
the +/- wall connection.

One more part to the mystery, I have a Ford HUW chassis out in the back 40. The seat isn't a regular CMP seat but after looking at Robert's pictures of various Wire 5 bodies, is it possible that this is a "radio" operator's seat - from the back of the HUW?

Let me know what you think and I could transfer it to the Wire 5 box if it is.

Regards,

[rob love]

The seat almost looks like the seat from a M-series Dodge. Seems to me there was two different heights in the command post vehicle and this would be the higher one.

[David Dunlop]

Rich.

That'almost' looks like a Bantam Jeep seat, but not quite. Whatever it is, it is definitely not a seat for your 2K1, or very likely the HUW.

THe two seats in the 2K1 for the Wireless Operator and Cypher Clerk are standard Chev CMP seat assemblies identical to those in the cab. In earlier 15-cwt Wireless bodies the seat assemblies were bolted onto wooden spacers on the floor, but these proved to be very poor in durability. For the 2K1, a seat mount assembly was designed out of tubular steel in a roughly figure eight shape. It sits about 3 to 4 inches high with four feet on it that bolt into the hole patterns in the floor you will find in front of the wireless desk and off to the left, in front of the Cypher Clerk Desk. The complete Chev seat and rail assembly then bolts down on top of these mounts. The mounts are drilled to take the hardware in the same spots that mount these seats to the cab floor. Both seats face forward. The Cypher Clerk works side saddle.

If you can find one of these tubular seat mounts, any shop could knock off a bunch for you in pretty short order. They are pretty straight forward in design.

Cheers for now,

David

[David Dunlop]

Well I found the Packing List for the Antennae, Vertical 34ft. Steel Mk. 1 this morning and thought I would post a copy of it since it shows the quantities of some of the key little bits and confirms exactly what items go in the heavy duty leather Bags, Aerial Gear, Canadian, which is part of the kit.

This bag is a heavy brute when all items are stowed in it and I am thinking it must have been stored on the floor inside the 2K1 when not in use. Thinking about this, a dim light in my memory went on, perhaps one of you can confirm, the details of for me.

The shelving unit mounted against the back wall of the body, left of the rear door on entering has a lower compartment with a vertically sliding door (this is the dim part I referred to). This would seem to be the perfect spot to put the leather Bags. I think the shelves were fibreboard and fairly thin so likely would not stand up to the weight of the leather bag for long. I think the door on the lower compartment might also have been fibre board with a grab handle.

David

[RichCam]

Thanks David for an explanation of Wire 5 Radio Box Seats. I don't have any extra CMP seats as anything that I do have is going to be going into the back of the Cab 12 Ford FATs when I get to restoring them.
Cheers, Richard

[David Dunlop]

Rob Love.

You mentioned these 15-cwt penthouses were not covered in the Design Branch records, but do your references covering the 30-cwt penthouses provide enough information to get a good idea of how the 2K1 penthouses would have looked?

I am thinking there must have been a large number of design/construction similarities and the 15-cwt items would essentially be shorter versions of the larger ones. Trying to figure out in my mind if they were one piece of canvas, 2 or more. They were probably interchangeable on either side of the 2K1 Body. A left and right version would be overkill.

I suspect they had two support poles for the outside corners at the very least, probably wooden, but would they be one piece or sectional?

The hem at the roofline for the 2K1 should probably have a line of grommets fitted tofasten to the hooks installed along the roofline and this hem may also have had some sort of weather strip to minimize the elements getting in. Don't know if the 30-cwt and other vehicles would have used the same hooks on the roof attachment method or something else.

Does it say if the penthouse came with it's own Storage Bag for all the pieces?

I am thinking the penthouse might not have been a standard issue for all WIRE 5 Trucks, but was more likely issued on an as needed basis. Not sure if that makes sense.

Can't help thinking of all the piles of canvas that used to be lying about at Tuelon and Westbourne many years ago that looked like bits and pieces of tent and wondering now if some of it was penthouse canvas. They would probably only ever have sold on the civvies market to anyone looking for bits to cut up and sew into something the customer needed. Can't imagine them ever flying off the shelves for what they were, although if they were stencilled with an ID and NOS today, they might attract a lot of attention.


David

[David Dunlop]

When I was working on my 2K1 WIRE 5, the wiring diagram on the inside of the fuse panel lid was intact, but very badly water stained. I eventually took the time to draft a 1:1 copy of it and had a local shop that specialized in printing blue prints make several copies for me.

Poking about in the basement today and ran across these diagrams. Photo attached of one.

They have now taken on a nice old patina to the paper after 30 odd years. Less than a handful still available and I will try and get out to the local PO this coming weekend to see what they have in the way of small mailing tubes. The prints need to be trimmed back to leave the right amount of white paper outside of the black border before gluing on the inner door panel of the fuse box. The notch in the diagram is to clear the spare fuse holder on the inside of the door.

PM me if you are interested. Postage is all I would need for them. First come first served.

David

[David Dunlop]

Been thinking more about the twin terminal pass through on the 2K1 Body under the Cypher Clerk's desk and I am beginning to think it might be a very well thought out multi purpose fitting.

So far, Rich has observed there is a copper shorting bar fixed on the outside set of terminals behind the little pull out cover. With this in place, you lose all electrical pass though ability for the terminals, but you gain a grounding point for the entire WIRE 5 vehicle. When would that be a useful thing to have? My thoughts are when you have one of the steel masts set up on the roof of the wireless box as a vertical radiator antennae. It would probably be prudent to have the vehicle grounded and when those terminals are in shorted mode, that would make an ideal location.

Second option for the terminals would be a pass through for a 12-volt DC or even 110-Volt AC power from the generators or batteries on board to drive equipment in the penthouse..

A third possibility came to me yesterday and I have a question out on the Wireless Forum to check the validity of the idea. Basically, if you need to run your 19-Set remotely, you need two Remote Control Units: a nearby unit close to the 19-Set and a remote unit X meters away, the two remotes connected by communication wire. There is a steel frame fixed to the top of the spare tyre box on the left side of the 2K1 body directly across from the wireless desk. I have long thought this was an ideal location for the nearby RCU to be located. An identical steel frame can be found on the sheet metal 'shelf' mounted on top of the right side wheel well, directly in front of the two Enfield Butt fittings. A great place to store the remote RCU when not in use.

Could it be possible, one could take a short length of D3 comm wire and connect the two terminals from the nearby RCU to the two passthrough terminals on the inside of the body. Go outside, remove the shorting bar from the outside terminals and then connect your big reel of D3 comm wire to the exterior terminals and off you go to wherever your remote RCU is being set up. This form of connection would be a lot simpler than trying to figure out a way to run the comm wire through a window or out the back door where if the door or window was closed suddenly the comm wire could be damaged.

Just a thought but a number of viable options seem to be available for this simple looking set of terminals. so probably worth tossing out there.


David

[Robert Bergeron]

David,

I agree with your third hypothesis and even just finished discussing it with Richard, the restorer of the box..literaly minutes ago.

A good connection point for field telephone wire.

Maybe also for feeding 12 VDC outside the box to operate radios on the batteries inside the box.

DEFINITELY not for 110 VAC . Too much danger of electrocution i figure.

Can you image the result of shorting 110 VAC on the aluminium and steel body and everyone in contact with it ?

The high voltage low ampereage current generated by the field phone ringers his sufficent to make a man'S HAIR TURN WHITE can you just imagine imagine 110 VAc ?

Just an hypothesis again.

Nice diagram by the way. Let me be your first client.

[David Dunlop]

Sadly, when I had my WIRE 5, it was only my 2nd MV restoration and I had not yet fully understood the invaluable lesson of taking photos of everything to do with this kind of project, let alone serious note and measurement taking, so please forgive the lack of detail here. My hope is some of you may be able to recognize the pieces, if you are missing them and or better understand how they worked. If any one has an original one of these tables, please post pictures and specifics.

I have added a sketch of the general look of the Cypher Clerk's table and the two support rod assemblies for it. IIRC, the hinge at the back of the table was piano style, but don't quote me. The two support assemblies were mounted on the wall of the wireless body below and just inboard of the outside edges of the table. The upper clips for the supports were definitely U-clips. The lower ones may have been U-clips immediately below the weld for the cross brace, but I am leaning towards a socket bracket right at the bottom of each vertical rod.

The support rods folded over one another against the wall when the table was not in use and the table dropped down over them. I think a spring clip was attached to the wall that engaged the front centre metal trim of the table top.
The metal trim around the edge of the table top extended about one half inch or more below the plywood. This allowed the two retaining clips to be screwed underneath either side, just aft of the corner tapers that locked the ends of the support bracket rods in place. It struck me at the time, the metal edge trimming for the Cypher Clerk Table looked very much like what was seen on 1930's era kitchen tables, but everything was painted white.

For what it is worth, these table assemblies were in short supply in all the boxes I saw at Princess. Most had nothing at all in that location and showed signs of repaint over that spot predating being surpassed out. A few had fixed brackets and basic ply tables installed. Not totally sure the tables were popular enough to disappear for that reason, but think they may have fallen into disuse due to the progressive failure of the interior plywood walls in these bodies. The original plywood was all constructed using common animal glues. Over time, these bodies start to leak and the constant exposure to moisture is fatal for the integrity of the old plywood. My WIRE 5 body had a few sections of wall that were visibly in tough shape. The rest looked pretty good, until I removed it to use as reference pieces for cutting new replacements. Within a few weeks of drying out indoors, even though it was still close to it's original thickness, the individual plies in each sheet started to separate from each other.


David

[RichCam]

Guys,

Jim pulled the terminals apart since we needed to know just how and what they looked like from both the inside and outside.
As per the pictures, Brass stud, brass wing nuts, washer, bakelite round spacer and bakelite spacer.
So, they were insulated from each other, you could pass + current through one and - current through the other. There is a 3rd terminal, on the inside, that ties directly into a steel stud. That would be a logical ground. I agree with Robert, this would be excellent for a field telephone connection as well as an external power port.
Other pictures are of the chorehorse closet. I will be replacing some of the rusted bottom pieces with new flat bar and angle stock. We have to leave 1 leg free so it can be stood up inside the box, had to cut it to get it tipped over and out the rear door.
Does anyone out there have a spare chorehorse closet door?

[David Dunlop]

Rich.

I ran into the same problem when planning the replacement of the ply in my 2K1. Even when moved to the centre of the floor at the high point of the roof arch, no way to tip it over. Had to keep shoving it around to work around it.

I suspect they must have placed the Gen Box into the 2K1 bodies before dropping the roof assemblies down on top of the rest of the structure. Once the spot welding and all the screws were in place securing the two body components, the interior ply was probably added and the Gen Box secured in it's corner and the painting done.

By the way, with regards to the armour cable and Bus Bar running from the Gen Box, the armour cable was all painted white and all it's fittings. From the Bus Bars I was able to examine, they all showed signs of white paint on them to some degree, but when you looked at the red cylindrical stand off insulators behind it that the mounting screws pass through to mount it to the wall, you could see they were all oversprayed and the paint was always thin to non existent on the bottom edge of the Bus Bar and insulators. The insulators look like a red resin or bakelite and were probably a common electrical bits. The terminal strips and actual wire cables were the only unpainted wiring inside the body.

Boy! I would love to find an old local electrical shop that has been around for decades and see if they had any 30's and 40's electrical supplies catalogs still kicking about. Can't help but think virtually all of the stuff in these boxes was off the shelf.

David