Chev 216 loose piston pin - which one ?

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Mike,
I am with Maurice on this, I only use proper water pump grease when overhauling pumps. Having been in vehicle engineering world for 48 years, you learn what to use and what not. It is formulated to work in a pump environment with heat and water present, where wheel bearing grease is not suitable.

regards, Richard

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

When you are ready with the waterpump, check if there is any play on the crankshaft pulley, if you can move it just a bit on the balancer it sounds like a worn bearing.
Just listened the video for the first time, now I am almost sure your pulley is loose on the balancer.

Hendrik

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Hendrik van Oorspronk

When you are ready with the waterpump, check if there is any play on the crankshaft pulley, if you can move it just a bit on the balancer it sounds like a worn bearing.
Just listened the video for the first time, now I am almost sure your pulley is loose on the balancer.

Hendrik

Thanks for the advice . I will check that out . Mike

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

As you mentioned

"I have seen the pump kit for the 235 conversion, I think the 235 engine is slightly longer than a 216 and the fan can be too close to the radiator in some vehicles "

yes this is why I had to remove and press on a different pulley.

My experience doing the conversion on the 261 and 235 was that the block is not longer it is the extra 1/4" of the adapter plate plus the positioning of the and shape of pulley on the later 216 water pumps. The new or rebuilt water pumps that I was using all had the the narrow style pulley that I removed and replaced with the old style pulley flange and pulley.

As to the domed piston, ran into this when I rebuilt the engine on my HUP a few years ago, needed a new head because mine had some cracks developing, they had not leaked yet. The only NOS head I could get was for the flat topped pistons which meant I had to change pistons, not a problem as the cylinders were being bored which the pistons had to be changed. Pictures of the piston and head http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...May%20Work.htm

Be careful of how you remove or drive on the crank pulley real easy to deform the hand crank boss. Made a tool that fit in the center hole and put the driving force across through the hand crank slots this way when pulley is driven on it doesn't damage the boss.

Crank Pulley Tool.jpg

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Mike

As you mentioned "I have seen the pump kit for the 235 conversion, I think the 235 engine is slightly longer than a 216 and the fan can be too close to the radiator in some vehicles " yes this is why I had to remove and press on a different pulley.

My experience doing the conversion on the 261 and 235 was that the block is not longer it is the extra 1/4" of the adapter plate plus the positioning of the and shape of pulley on the later 216 water pumps. The new or rebuilt water pumps that I was using all had the the narrow style pulley that I removed and replaced with the old style pulley flange and pulley.

As to the domed piston, ran into this when I rebuilt the engine on my HUP a few years ago, needed a new head because mine had some cracks developing, they had not leaked yet. The only NOS head I could get was for the flat topped pistons which meant I had to change pistons, not a problem as the cylinders were being bored which the pistons had to be changed. Pictures of the piston and head http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...May%20Work.htm

Be careful of how you remove or drive on the crank pulley real easy to deform the hand crank boss. Made a tool that fit in the center hole and put the driving force across through the hand crank slots this way when pulley is driven on it doesn't damage the boss.

Attachment 73975

Cheers Phil

Ok Interesting

What type of carby do you run on your 216's ?

I have a Rochester model B on the C8 . It has been very good and trouble free but I just noticed it has been running rich , the plugs are black with carbon . I use the original oil bath air cleaner .

A lot of people here with old Chevys, use Holden Stromberg carbies with an adjustable main jet .

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

All three of my 216 engines still have their original carbs all are Carter W-1 but they are not identical there were changes during the years of production. Carb at left is out of the 41 Pattern 12 one at right is the 1945 HUP carb.

Web Carb early and late W-1.jpg

Yes, I have noted that all of the engines seem to run richer, than when I first started driving them years ago. Do not know if this is the carbs or if it is that the gasoline has change a lot in the US.

The HUP with 216 has original oil bath, C60L with 235 has a 235 oil bath (throat is bigger) the C60S with the 261 has a modern paper filter could not find an oil bath that would fit the carb or the space.

The Carter W-1 on the HUP has been trouble free in 37 years of driving except for one time when I got a half a tank of water at a gas station. Ended up fixing the truck on the side of the road, drain the filter, remove the fuel bowel on the fuel pump, took the top of the carb and empty the water out . Fortunately I had only filled one tank at that station so was able to switch over to the other tank, then with the fuel line disconnected from the carb pumped the hand primer on the fuel pump until the lines were clear and gas going into the collection can was clear.

Because of the ethanol in the US gas I have discontinued using the mechanical fuel pumps on two of the trucks and replaced them with 6 volt electrics. On the HUP the original fuel pump is still in place and the fuel goes through it but it has a metal plate where the pump diaphragm would be used galvanized steel so it should not rust.


The two bigger trucks with the 261 and 235 engine have the correct carbs for the truck engine, got lucky and found the pair on e-bay NOS for under $50 US. Both were missing the same little check valve which is why they were still in the box as NOS because they didn't work correctly robbed the check valve from two non-functioning old carbs and they run great. Both are Rochester Carbs.

Web 261 235 216 Carbs.jpg

When I swapped engines on the 3 Tons I kept the original engines as complete units on engine stands, ready to reinstall should the need ever arise. Only thing missing fans and generators which moved over to the newer engines.

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

The Rochester manual

http://www.newagemetal.com/pages/Ser...delBmanual.pdf

[Jordan Baker]

Mike, back on the first page of your post you had some great pictures of rebuilding your water pump. You replaced the original seals with a modern mechanical seal. I'm just wondering how it all turned out once it had been in use?

Is this the type of seal you used?

https://www.grainger.com/product/PAC...aft-Seal-1R318

Thanks.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Mike, back on the first page of your post you had some great pictures of rebuilding your water pump. You replaced the original seals with a modern mechanical seal. I'm just wondering how it all turned out once it had been in use?

Is this the type of seal you used?

https://www.grainger.com/product/PAC...aft-Seal-1R318

Thanks.

Hi Jordan

I have been running the engine regularly, mainly in order to keep it all from gunking up, the modern fuel is crap and it clogs evreything up if you leave it .

The water pump mod has been great , no leaks in over 2 years. Yes those mechanical seals are easy to buy. I used the 5/8" one from memory.

[Jordan Baker]

I picked up a couple of the 5/8" mechanical seals. Is the ceramic part supposed to be a loose fit on the shaft? I got 5/8" but it seems loose to me. What did you make the adapter out of to fit the ceramic part into the impeller?

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Mike,
I am with Maurice on this, I only use proper water pump grease when overhauling pumps. Having been in vehicle engineering world for 48 years, you learn what to use and what not. It is formulated to work in a pump environment with heat and water present, where wheel bearing grease is not suitable.

regards, Richard

Hello Richard,

Can you please supply the name of the product and manufacturer for the water pump grease?

I did do some research and I found it difficult to discern between automotive "water pump grease" and irrigation pump-type "water pump grease".

I am not sure if irrigation pump-type "water pump grease" does effectively transfers across to an automotive use?

I found this product mentioned on a number of forums - including outboard motors for boats and also Mopar.

The company mentioned is "Lubliplate Div of Fiske Bros"; their web site cites that LUBRIPLATE "No. 115 is the ideal water pump lubricant. These lubricants offer a long lasting film of protection for light duty applications." http://www.lubriplate.com/Products/M...30-Series.html

Technical details about No. 115, accessed from an Amazon page - LUBRIPLATE No. 115 is the ideal water pump lubricant. These lubricants offer a long lasting film of protection for light duty applications. Typical Tests LUBRIPLATE No. 100 105 107 110 115 Type of Base Calcium Worked Penetration Semi- @ 77°F Fluid 355/385 310/340 235/260 175/205 Unworked Penetration 30 gram cone @ 77°F 365/375 ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- NLGI No. 00 0 1 2.5 4 ASTM Dropping Point 170°F 170°F 180°F 190°F 210°F 77°C 77°C 82°C 88°C 99°C Mineral Oil Viscosity SUS @ 100°F 300 cSt @ 40°C 58 58 58 58 58 Character Smooth Color Off-White Off-White Off-White Off-White Off-White ISO-9001 Registered Quality System. ISO-21469 Compliant.

Accessed 2/06/2015 from http://www.amazon.com/Lubriplate-115.../dp/B00N783WN4

Outboard motor website about Lubiplate No 115 Accessed 2/06/2015 from, http://johnsoldmercurysite.com/phpBB...?t=1767#p11966

An "Old Jalopy" website does mention the Lubriplate No. 115 Accessed 2/06/2015 from, http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t.../#post-5211043

Also mentioned at a Dodge Power Wagon site Accessed 2/06/2015 from, http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/best/...mp_grease.html

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Mike K]

The water pump bearing in the 216 chevy uses an enclosed maintenance free modern type bearing, it has a ball race at each end . These bearings were packed with grease when manufactured and were not intended to be repacked , these type of bearings are still widely used in auto water pumps , even my XF Falcon uses one .

The grease for the older style water pumps, pre 1940's , with grease nipples would have to be specific grease , I agree . For the modern style pump bearings, the wheel bearing grease is ideal .

Older water pumps often have bronze bushes as bearings and are packed with graphite rope packing as seals ..... I think the water pump grease is more suited to this application .

Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Hello Richard,

Can you please supply the name of the product and manufacturer for the water pump grease?

I did do some research and I found it difficult to discern between automotive "water pump grease" and irrigation pump-type "water pump grease".

Hi Lionel,
Click on the link I put in my earlier post;
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_products=88
This is an Australian product and specified for older vehicles. Ones I have used are from UK manufacturers, such as Castrol, etc.
At the end of the day, it is your choice or preference, but I have not had one fail from lack of lubrication when using this type of grease.

regards, Richard

[Mike K]

Back to the pump rebuild

Before I continue with the description and pics . This mod to my water pump was done without any permission from anybody. It is my pump and I do with it as I wish.

That is enough sarcasm from me .

I decided to ditch plan A and go to plan B

I bored out the pump housing on my mill/drill, using a home made boring head .

The seal is a two part seal as used in swimming pool pumps and fire fighting pumps and myriad other applications , these seals are easy to buy and are known as 'mechanical seals ' . I used a 5/8" seal .

Any machine shop can do this simple mod .

The last thing is to machine up an adapter for the ceramic seal, to fit it into the impeller

Thats it

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

Now for the big test how does the new bearing / seal work in the truck. Please keep us posted on the road test.

With all the comments on replacing and rebuilding water pumps on Chevy CMPs I have been hesitant to mention that my HUP still has it's original water pump. The truck will be 70 years old in 4 days. Life of water pumps probably are most effected by the coolant used. Straight water being the worst, ethanol glycol seeming to be the best.

I didn't want to jinx it and have it fail, my other two 216 engines did get new water pumps, which were available off the shelf from regular auto parts sources. The replacement engines the 261 and 235 both have the 216 style water pump. In both cases this required pushing the pulleys off to replace them with correct diameter and width. Each time had my fingers crossed that the bearing and seals would survive.

Now to anyone who has relubricate an old bearing how has it worked in the long haul? How many miles or years have they gone? Do they leak or get noisy first?

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Mike

Now for the big test how does the new bearing / seal work in the truck. Please keep us posted on the road test.

With all the comments on replacing and rebuilding water pumps on Chevy CMPs I have been hesitant to mention that my HUP still has it's original water pump. The truck will be 70 years old in 4 days. Life of water pumps probably are most effected by the coolant used. Straight water being the worst, ethanol glycol seeming to be the best.

I didn't want to jinx it and have it fail, my other two 216 engines did get new water pumps, which were available off the shelf from regular auto parts sources. The replacement engines the 261 and 235 both have the 216 style water pump. In both cases this required pushing the pulleys off to replace them with correct diameter and width. Each time had my fingers crossed that the bearing and seals would survive.

Now to anyone who has relubricate an old bearing how has it worked in the long haul? How many miles or years have they gone? Do they leak or get noisy first?

Cheers Phil

hi Phil

I have seen the pump kit for the 235 conversion, I think the 235 engine is slightly longer than a 216 and the fan can be too close to the radiator in some vehicles .

I did a similar mod to what I have done to the 216 pump , in a Series 1 Land Rover some years ago, the Rover is still running fine, no leaks at all. The technology in modern seals these days is far better than the older style seals ever were.

The 216 engines did change in 1941 . I believe all of the CMP engines were basically a 1940 engine with dome pistons .