Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

Then if KG3 predates the 1942 colours what is its provenance given Mike Starmers work and the stark difference between UK KG3 according to his research and The Australian version that does look remarkably like toned down KGJ .

Is it the britisification of Australian army language??

My reading of the files indicates the Australian colour set came into existence in late 1941 so that coincides with your information. I will re-look up the Melbourne file next time I am down there hopefully with a spectrograph. I also read that the paint was too light and did not account for fading but the file I had that from was referring to J not 3 and I think it was also referred to in Dakins notes ...I have recently had those put online. Dakin makes clear the fading issue was particularly problematic with the paint made in Melbourne , other suppliers being sufficient fade resistant to pas the AS test. .

[Mrs Vampire]

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or refrence number for it.

[Mark Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or refrence number for it.

Gina,

Not 1269 but in Nigel Watson's Carrier book:

War Office to Canadian Military HQ dated 31 December 1940 .....

"Light stone agreed as the colour pattern for MT vehicles for the Middle East.

Camouflage Designs - IMT (SK) 1263 (Sheets 1-6), Ministry of Supply Specification MC 205J, Tint Plates, Khaki Green No.3, Control Shades 219 & 235."

This was sent from Dep.Nat. Def.,Ottawa to Can.Mil.HQ

"Paint Spec. CS/1289 Grey dark, CS/1276 Light green No.5 special, CS/1275 Light Indian red special, CS/1274 Dark Tarmac No.4 special, CS/1273 Light Sand special, CS/1272 Middle Stone special, CS/1193 Light Stone, CS/955 Ammonium Nitrate."

Cheers,
Mark

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi all,
First of all I have been following this thread with interest since its start, and I'm impressed by the level of research and dedication taken in pursuit of achieving historical accuracy. I've got nothing to add in respect to the research already undertaken, and look forward to seeing what arises. In respect to the recent discussion in this thread about early and late colour specifications, I may be able to offer an opinion.

While working on the restoration of my LP2, I have noticed that there appears to be two destinctive green paint coats on the lower hull, under the guards. I've noticed that the hull looks to have been originally painted in a darker version of a khaki green colour, and then later over painted (rather crudely) with a lighter version of a khaki green, and a disruptive pattern in a mid stone/sandy brown colour. The difference between the two greens is quite pronounced. That said, I can't account for deterioration and fading that has occured to the top coat in the ensuing years....

Futhermore, I've also heard that paint stocks delivered to maintenence units during the war, recieved paint that was fairly thick, almost in a paste like consistency and required thinning before application. As access to proper thinners wasn't always available, resourceful diggers used whatever was readily available. This could range from petrol, kerosene, aviation fuel or whatever else could be obtained. Obviously, depending on what was used as a thinning agent, it could have an effect on the chemical composition of the paint being applied, and consequently on the hue of the colour being applied and its appearance once dried. Unfortunately, this is ancedotal information only told to me by old diggers that served during the war. Furthermore, there wasn't too much concern about what colour paint was delivered or recieved by units, weather it was army spec, RAAF spec or USAAF paint, once an order was issued to repaint, whatever stocks were on hand was used.

Finally, for your consideration and comment, I've attached a pic of my LP2 hull showing the colour variations.

Thanks.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Mark,

Interesting that NWs books contains Canadian ref to KG3, too, and the other numbers for colours are in the same spec sequence (CS/1289 dark grey, for example). 'CS' I think stands for 'Contract Specification", ie the requirements released to contractors for bidding and manufacturing purposes. The spec originated with the War Office, and I suggest Australia used the spec/method, but arrived at their own colour to suit local conditions. This last is speculative, of course.

Gina has recd the BC and ref numbers for the NAA file by PM.

Regards

Mike

[Big D]

Hi all,

I’ve been following this paint discussion since my last post and I thought this might have been of interest.

As per my previous posts I’m in the process of getting bits and pieces sandblasted and primed now in preparation for painting my AOP Scout Car.

Darrin has kindly sent me some paint samples which are yet to arrive but I’m hoping they will help me sort out a colour match for the Khaki Green and Light Stone or Light Earth pattern I am looking at.

I had a thought yesterday about the paint on the underside of the remaining tool locker door on the scout car. Not sure why I hadn’t thought of it before but I pulled it out today and looked at the paint on the back.

Being in a place not exposed to light and the weather, the surface is reasonably well undisturbed apart from a couple of places where something has been spilt on the paint and a couple of places where the paint is peeling off.

In a couple of areas the top layer of paint was flaking off so I did some work on those to see what was under them. The paint lifted quite easily and was quite flakey in a couple of places.

I’ve attached a few pictures of those areas. These pictures were taken outside in sunlight (not bright) and for the closeups, I wiped the surface with a damp cloth first.

Am I right in saying the top layer is likely to be the pre-1942 Khaki Green applied to the scout car?

Would that mean the darker green underneath would be the U.S. Olive Drab?

I can see what looks like the primer under the darker green where I’ve rubbed further.

This area under the locker door is completely different to the areas I had previously posted on and I don’t think it has been stripped and repainted like the other areas I photographed and uploaded here.

If it is the pre-1942 Khaki Green then that will be a good sample to work from.

I’ll be interested to see how the paint samples that Darrin has sent will compare with this.

[Mrs Vampire]

More on Paint .
I have a spare rear for my Ford Gun Tractor No 9. The paint on parts are pristine on other parts faded .

The paint is perfectly matched to Khaki Green No 3 Australian .
The paint has faded to the all to familiar Yellow that Khaki Green J fades to so from faded paint it is impossible to distinguish KG3 from KGJ.

Keith Webb has identified the part as having been made in September of 1944 which is consistent with the change to KG3 order of Dec 1943. My spare rear was a NOS spare recovered from Hughes trading in Coburg Melbourne in the seventies.

My earlier question was: given the huge stocks of paint held by the vehicle manufacturers would they have persisted with KGJ or followed the order and changed to KG3 ?? .
Although not conclusive evidence to hand supports the view that the change to KG3 was made in Dec 1943(they may have exhausted their stocks of KGJ by Sept 1944 and earlier relics I have viewed from 1944 appear to be KG3 from new. )
If the change to KG3 was made by Manufacturers in late 1943 early 1944 it rather suggests KGJ was able to be toned down to KG3. That also would support my theory that KG3 Australian was a a local colour and not an adaptation of British KG3 which Mike Starmers colour chips suggest was a quite different colour.

Dakin and other archive files make it clear that KGJ was toned down once in mid to late 1942 and again in the early part of 1943 . Perhaps a little bit more evidence that KG3 refers to the third version of KGJ .

A lot more is needed to absolutely nail all of this down but evidence from the artifacts and the archive seem to be pointing in this general direction.

Finally a match between my spare rear for the FGT and Bob Moseley's version of KG3 are identical, suggesting Bob had it absolutely right. I will compare that sample against the colour chip in the Melbourne Archive and nail it beyond question.

I think we are on safe ground with KG3 I am still in need of further evidence on the question of Light Stone and KGJ which I, at this point, think will only be resolved with spectrographic evidence from the archived samples. I am still of the View that the 2pdr anti Tank carrier in the Bandianana collection has it as right as is possible on the current evidence.
I am still of the view that the pre war and early 1940 to 1941 colour was bronze green No 24 as per the British Army specification.

[Mrs Vampire]

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or reference number for it.

[Dianaa]

Gina

I know its not within your era, but in your investigations have you found a supplier who can do the 1960s to 1980s Australian Olive Drab?

My Mk3 International is about to be repainted. This entered service in 1964 as Deep Bronze green but along with most other vehicles in the Army fleet was repainted to olive drab sometime after 1965 and this is the colour I would like to use.

The repaint colour for the Inters and Land Rovers of the time was a Wattyl Industrial finish NSN 8101-66-025-5003 with the Wattyl numbers: paint code = 151603.20 and part Number 8010/660255003 for the 20 litre drums. This paint was last purchased by Gary in 2010 but Wattyl have today advised it is no longer available.

Currently touch ups on my truck have been done with the available Protec 342-1166 - Camouflage Green however this is a component of the 1990's era AusCam and not correct for the Mk3 service period.

My preference is for a period correct colour for my own Mk3, a mates ex-Vietnam 17 Construction Mk3 and a M548 to do over the next couple of years, so do you have any ideas of a supplier?

Diana

[Mrs Vampire]

If that is the same paint that you supplied me a sample of and we decanted into 4 litre tins that is in the Florite data base and they can make it .

That paint was coultards Alkyd 405488 Camo Green 6477

Other wise provide me with a sample and we can spectrgraph it and get it into the data base. something bigger than about 4 inches square and as pristine as possible.

Exact matches for those paints is not a possibility anymore. From the Mid sixties the Army was playing around with pigments that gave the same infra red reflection as the foliage they were going to be used near. The pigments are generally not available.

The upshot is a re-matched paint will look identical save that in some light conditions will look different . Given others must have done this with Land Rovers especially and I have not heard an outcry about colour matching I guess the colour matching so far has been good enough to pass muster or some one still has some original supplies someplace.

I note the REMLR club has some chip-sets from the period . perhaps we could convince them to get them spectrographed and make the information generally available .

http://www.remlr.com/paint.html

[Dianaa]

Wattyl have come back to me a second time and suggested that the tinting color code still exists as "ADE Olive Drab" but the tint base paint isn't available.

They are suggesting using Paracryl IF540 and the Paracryl IF540 Mating Base. What do you think?

(had a bit of trouble reducing the matting MSDS to a size that would upload).

[Mike Cecil]

"Then if KG3 predates the 1942 colours what is its provenance given Mike Starmers work and the stark difference between UK KG3 according to his research and The Australian version that does look remarkably like toned down KGJ ." - there are two questions here, so, to the first:

I don't know the provenance of the Australian KG3. I agree it is different to UK KG3 (Mike's work), but was that simply a matter of 'variation to suit local conditions'? In other words, Aust didn't like the UK KG3, and mixed a version to suit local conditions? That's pure conjecture, of course: I have not studied that aspect or have anything archival to indicate that, I just accepted the fact that it existed, and, after exchanges with Mike many years ago, that it was purely 'Australian' with the only common factor being the name.

As to the second, rather than 'toned down KGJ', given the timing, you could look at it from the point of view that Dakin's team simply arrived at a similar colour in their research (and why wouldn't they? They were dealing with the same physical environment and camouflage challenges), and may well have 'modified' KG3 to become KG-J to align the colour more closely with their research results, ie, a 'better' version based on research. The ASC chart certainly lists KG-J as 'equivalent to Army KG-3' - it's written across the bottom of the colour chart page.

I haven't seen ref to KG-J fading (but also haven't looked for it, either): the only ref I have is to KG-3 and the suggestion to darken it, dated in June 42.

PM me with your postal address and I'll send you an Army Olive Drab colour sample chip from the 1960s/70s that might help you and Gina.

I'll look up the file ref with the KG3 chip in it and send it to you. The spec is buried in an MP729 file in Melbourne.

Nice work, Gina. Certainly thrashing out a few aspects on paint!

Mike

[Dianaa]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

If that is the same paint that you supplied me a sample of and we decanted into 4 litre tins that is in the Florite data base and they can make it .

That paint was coultards Alkyd 405488 Camo Green 6477
...<snip>

Hi Gina

You must have posted while I was writing my reply so I didn't see your one till today.

No the paint I gave you was later than the 1960s/70s.

When you go to places like the Corowa Swim-In you'll find lots of different hues being the paint restorers were able to find. e.g. My SIII FFR was painted by the previous owner who went to his local paint supplier who found a listing for Land Rover 1980 MoD Green and assumed this was the Australian Department of Defence colour when it's actually a British equivalent of NATO Green.

The issue for me is that my mate (and where I store my Mk3) was a RAEME craftsman in the 1970s and he doesn't like the colour match of Protec Camo Green etc he wants to use the Wattyl colour he used in service because it is the correct colour for the era.

If my vehicle is to live next to his and probably go out together it is better that they both match.

Will try to find a panel to spectrograph off.

[Mrs Vampire]

I feel confident Florite will give you as close a match as is currently possible with commercially available pigment.

I have been told Wattle have moved onto clear bases and new pigments to cut back on the number of colour bases they need to stock. In any case The pigment of the original is still likely to have IR properties.. The Army had been working on that even in the closing days of WWII. The Paracryl recommended seems to be a two pack paint that can't be glossed down below around 20%

I would recommend an Alcyd paint . Eggshell Gloss level (3%) is being used a lot for KG3 as it is maintainable in showroom condition for many years and rejuvenation with baby oil for shows. The original you are seeking was certainly dead flat ( less than 1%) Dead flat cannot be achieved with flatting agents or by mixers like Bunnings etc auto suppliers or even protec except at their factory in SA. .... The flatting agent for dead flat remains Talc and is now only done by factory mixers. Hence Florite or Proteck factories rather than agents and on sellers.

Dead flat of course will mark and scuff fairly easily ( as complained about during the wars) and also is susceptible to Glossing up in the event of oil spills and rubbing... For my own part I am going with dead flat. I want my tank and Gun Tractor to look used as they did when in action. I am not one for Factory show room finishes.

Recent developments with Army security etc etc mean some pigments are now considered not suitable for release for civilian use. But a colour sample and spectrograph will sort that out.

Gina