Now What?

RHClarke · #1 21-11-04, 20:34

Situation: Broken spring mount bolt in axle.

Remedy Part One: Drill out - Done!

Remedy Part Two: Use fancy "twist out" device - screw in hole and attach large adjustable wrench to end. Apply torque...

Problem: Fancy 'twist out" device shatters at just above the level of the sheared off bolt.

Remedy Part Three: Chisel off the "twist out".

Problem: Chisel takes a real beating and small shards fly off the end of the chisel at high speed.

Problem Compounded: I now have the remains of a drilled out bolt with the remains of a "twist out" firmly lodged up its hoop.

Short of taking the whole axle assembly to a machine shop to have them sort out this mess, I appeal to the corporate memory of MLU restorers for a solution. HELP!

Stay tuned for other restorer problems... I do love this hobby...winter is coming...I really do love this hobby...

Phil Waterman · #2 21-11-04, 20:55

Hi Richard

Did the same thing on my HUP back in 1978 skidded through a 3 foot high snow bank and hit a catch basin sheared rear outer bolt off. This was just after I got my HUP and did realize that not all the brakes were working.

I went the through the same basic steps you did with about the same results. How far in have you successfully drilled? How centered is your hole? Reason I ask is that I was able to use a hole saw just smaller than bolt managed to saw out the remains of the bold leaving the threads in the axle intact then just rethreaded them to clean up.

herr-pear · #3 21-11-04, 21:27

Weld nut to stub of bolt. Squirt with oil while still hot. Immediately turn out, preferably with socket wrench. The heat, along with the sudden cooling will help break it loose.

Pete Ashby · #4 21-11-04, 23:20

Easy outs is what those F###*** things are called here in the UK, as you have found out..... Avoid them like the plague!! .

Welding a nut on and turning before it cools is by far the best option. If all else fails use a cobalt drill you can get them from good tool suppliers expensive and prone to break if miss used but it will do the job.

Pete

RHClarke · #5 21-11-04, 23:45

Thanks for the suggestions. It looks like I have a small welding job ahead of me. Phil, the "twist or easy my a** out" is broken off at a really weird bunch of angles. If welding a nut onto it does not work, I am inclined to grind it down to surface level, center punch it and drill it out with a special bit as suggested.

The good news is that I finally have the brake drums off my HUP. The forward passenger side drum did not want to part company and the puller at the S&P museum did not have long enough reach. Other removal methods were used with no measurable progress. While contemplating what to do next (using a come along ...reffing on it with the tractor) I removed the brake shoe retaining nuts (on the outside rear of the plate) loosened off the wheel cylinder and pushed it through the plate. The hub came off with a few rocking motions...

So, it wasn't all bad news today. Now, time to strip down the front wheel cylinders.

Ever notice that when you have the time for the hobby, y'ain't got the money...and when you do have the money, y'ain't got the time...

R

Snowtractor · #6 22-11-04, 06:40

or die grinder with any of several different style grinding heads will work quite well. Does take a steady hand but if the bolt isn't that large it is easier with a dremel. Also snap-on makes an easy out system that is spectacular with drill centering adaptors and a hex nut system that slides over the easy out so you can use socket to twist the nut out straight...no side torque.I see that princess auto is selling an identical kit currently, may not be built as tough I do not know. They ,Snap-on, also make a reverse twist drill bit that quite often removes the bolt by itself. If you pound in a square easy out you spread the bolt in the bore and it will quite often wedge the bolt and make it harder to remove. And we all know about heat.
Lastly , muffler shops have stud welders that can spot weld a stud on to another stud or piece of steel etc. Manifold bolts break off all the time so they came up with an easy cheap system to replace them. I don't know if you can take the part in to a muffler shop or not.
Sean

ps http://www.princessauto.com/pacountr...Y=CAN&INF=home check out the sale flyer

#7 22-11-04, 07:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Easy outs is what those F###*** things are called here in the UK, as you have found out..... Avoid them like the plague!! .

Oh how right you are. Whoever invented those pieces of dross should be shot at dawn, but I guess we've all been here once. . . . . . . . . . . . They're about as useful as a fart in a colander or maybe a little less.

"EEZE OUT" - neither easy or out and made by the Snap-Off™ Tool Company.

R.

Richard Farrant · #8 22-11-04, 20:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Also snap-on makes an easy out system that is spectacular with drill centering adaptors and a hex nut system that slides over the easy out so you can use socket to twist the nut out straight...no side torque.

Sean,

Those parallel extractors are very good, when I worked for the Army we had them, US made, but not Snap-On from memory,. Best thing is that you can turn them back and fore to free the thread and I have never had one break, with the nut slid down close to the broken stud there is little chance of breakage.

Richard

Snowtractor · #9 23-11-04, 23:02

..Hi Richard. Guess I should have said that there is a set on sale in the princess auto sales flyer. The extractor you tap in, not pound, does not taper like the square extractors and the reverse screw type and therefore doesn't expand the bolt. It has mulitple , very small, lands on it that cut small grooves on the inside of the bolt. Each one not having enough grip to turn out the bolt but by having many of them it is very solid in the bolt. It acts like the newer slip yokes with mulitple small grooves instead of having just six honking lugs, the result is more suface contact though a 35 spline looks sno much more fragile it is infact tougher.
I have to reiterate that those reverse grooved drill bits work wonders to in removing bolts. Just slow steady pressure and out they pop very often.
Sean

RHClarke · #10 24-11-04, 01:26

Just to make things a little more complicated in my HUP restoration, eagle-eyed Mike of the S&P Museum noted that the opposite bolt hole on my axle was not threaded. At the time I was more concerned with the problem at hand - "removing a remover and then removing a sheared off bolt".

Looking ahead, I wonder how to fix the "missing threads" in the other bolt hole. I did a web-search and researched tapping - an option, but the next size larger bolt is huge.

I also came across a little device called a Heli-coil. Anyone out there have any experience with these seemingly simple devices? Any heli-coil advice you would wish to dispense to a novice mechanic?

R

herr-pear · #11 24-11-04, 02:33

Heli-coils are, indeed, wonderous things and have many good applications. However, I would hesitate to use one where the base material is thin and there is great bending force present; especially if that force is continually changing. I suppose a vehicle shock mount would fit that discription.

Far better, IMHO, would be a solid threaded insert. These are simply cylinders of metal with a hole tapped in the center the same as the original threads you are replacing and threaded on the outside with a larger standard thread. You drill out the original hole to the proper tapping size for the outside thread of the insert, tap the hole, and screw in the insert. Loc-tite is usually used to anchor the insert but welding would work also. These are widely commercially available or easily homemade.

Roger in Vegas
Retired Aircraft and Industrial mechanic.

Alex Blair (RIP) · #12 24-11-04, 02:57

Quote:

Originally posted by RHClarke
Just to make things a little more complicated in my HUP restoration, eagle-eyed Mike of the S&P Museum noted that the opposite bolt hole on my axle was not threaded. At the time I was more concerned with the problem at hand - "removing a remover and then removing a sheared off bolt".

Looking ahead, I wonder how to fix the "missing threads" in the other bolt hole. I did a web-search and researched tapping - an option, but the next size larger bolt is huge.

I also came across a little device called a Heli-coil. Anyone out there have any experience with these seemingly simple devices? Any heli-coil advice you would wish to dispense to a novice mechanic?

R

Get the TIG or Mig welder out and fill in the dastardly hole...Grind smooth...Redrill and retap to what ever size you want...You are now restarting with a new deck..
Half hour should do it....

Snowtractor · #13 24-11-04, 05:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Blair
Get the TIG or Mig welder out and fill in the dastardly hole...Grind smooth...Redrill and retap to what ever size you want...You are now restarting with a new deck..
Half hour should do it....

Insert or welder work grand, welder cheaper more labour though, just don't do as my chum did and use a stainless rod for the welding, lol. Funny how he couldn't keep the high speed steel drill bit straight, it kept sneeaking off to the side in to the softer base metal.

Sean

PS so is the bolt out?

Alex Blair (RIP) · #14 24-11-04, 13:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Insert or welder work grand, welder cheaper more labour though, just don't do as my chum did and use a stainless rod for the welding, lol. Funny how he couldn't keep the high speed steel drill bit straight, it kept sneeaking off to the side in to the softer base metal.

Sean

PS so is the bolt out?

Good point Sean..
Use a 6012 low splatter rod as a filler..or a 7014 for a really smooth job...
Your old stick welder and fairly low heat should do the trick...

Snowtractor · #15 24-11-04, 19:16

I know we've beat this to death , but JB WELD works also. It is pretty amazing stuff. My uncle who used to rebuild old stationary engines would use it fill in the ovaled/pitted rusted area of the cylinder of a horizontal engine,generally the bottom. He would precut a hard plastic form in the right diameter then ,after cleaning, put the JB WELD in a pool in the area and quickly form it to the right cylinder shape after that he would sand it and hone it and the compression of the engine would be restored and it would run. He just ran them for fun so they weren't working 10 hours a day under load but they would still get warm and the JB WELD never came off.
So you could clean the hole fill it with JB and let harden and drill,tap the bolt hole.
Sean

RHClarke · #16 24-11-04, 21:54

Sean,

The bolt still exists. Unfortunately I am a "weekend restoration warrior". My HUP is located near Kars, and I live in the east end of Ottawa. I get out to the site once a week and that time is split between museum work and the HUP restoration - part of the deal I struck with the S&P museum for storing my truck.

I am trying to justify the cost of a MIG welder to my patient but mystified wife. She thinks that food and clothing are a higher priority.

I will post the result of my extraction in the future.

R

Pete Ashby · #17 24-11-04, 23:44

Quote:

Originally posted by RHClarke
Sean,

am trying to justify the cost of a MIG welder to my patient but mystified wife. She thinks that food and clothing are a higher priority.

R

Oh dear me no,

You only need one set of clothes, a couple of tins of beans and a bottle of beer or tea, mug not bottle.......... But you need as many tools as you can cram into a good sized barn.

A mig welder is a must as is a medium grinder.

Better not to discuss the finer point of tool purchase with women, they don't understand, my wife once picked one of my fifty or so spanners and asked
"why do you need so many they all look the same except bigger"

nuf said

Pete

Richard Farrant · #18 24-11-04, 23:44

Quote:

Originally posted by RHClarke
the "twist or easy my a** out" is broken off at a really weird bunch of angles.

Richard,

Are you are still having trouble with the broken Easyout? I do not think it is worth trying to drill it out with a special drill because it will be a bugger to keep centred. The best solution which I am surprised has not been mentioned so far, is Spark Erosion.

Take a look at the following link and see how it suits this problem;
www.helicoilservices.co.uk

Not sure if this company would visit you on site, (travelling charges would be rather high ) but there is bound to be someone with the equipment in the Ottawa area.

Richard

RHClarke · #19 25-11-04, 00:48

Richard,

Neat website and a fantastic process to boot! I will check the local scene and get a price. It seems too good to be true and I'm guessing that a costly "house call" will be the catch.

However, as I have found out, hiring an expert can save plenty of time, frustration and serious second guessing - sandblasting frames comes easily to mind...

Thanks for the tip.

R

chris vickery · #20 25-11-04, 16:05

Rob, I believe the process is also referred to as EDM machining or diesinking here in Canada.
My father, unfortunately now deceased, was an expert on the process and I had the opportunity to see first hand how well a broken tap or drill could be burnt out of a hole.
Check around the area for machine shops which specialize in the process and you will haveto take your part to them.

Snowtractor · #21 25-11-04, 20:48

Quote:

Originally posted by RHClarke
I am trying to justify the cost of a MIG welder to my patient but mystified wife. She thinks that food and clothing are a higher priority.

Honey I need the welder to make plant holders and stands for the house.....or, to fix the dents in the car you drive

Spark erosion, very cool! There is all kinds of machine shops and specialty places that can do a superb job, for a price. The remedies mentioned are to keep costs down ,somewhat, in the restore.

Sean

cmperry4 · #22 26-11-04, 01:50

If things like so-called easy outs, etc. , are useless, why to they keep on making and selling them? I've a set of Lisle screw extractors, which look like they should work if you follow the instructions and have ideal conditions but I haven't yet had a chance to use them in earnest.
I once tried JB Weld to patch the rad on my Land Rover, which worked, but it didn't work when I tried to patch the leak in one of the radiators in my house.

That advice about sandblasting seems like a good idea. I got a bench-top cabinet for the small stuff, though.

Just getting myself all set up in my posh rented garage workshop, now trying to get the engine out, but it still seems a bit balky, like it's hung up on the drive flange or something.

Bob Carriere · #23 26-11-04, 02:59

For the love of God.... after following this series of remedy...I still can't figure out what is a "spring mount bolt in axle"....

Now if it was a "thing haw maw jig" I probably would know....

Rob.... please educate me!!!!

signed....Curious Bob

RHClarke · #24 26-11-04, 21:47

Hi Bob,

The bolt I am referring to is one of four that hold the front springs onto the axle on the driver side. My 45 HUP has a plate with four drilled holes that sits on top of the springs and when bolted to the axle holds the springs in place. On the passenger side, there are two u shaped shackles that go around the axle and are fixed in place by nuts and another drilled plate with a rubber bumper on it.

I just can't seem to shake the luddite in me and post photos to this forum... you are stuck with my feeble attempt at a verbal word picture.

More to follow on the HUP follies show...

R

herr-pear · #25 27-11-04, 07:33

Is it possible that the hole with no threads you have is just that? Might it be that it never was threaded and is the correct size and only needs a tap run through it? I've run into sillier things.

Roger in Vegas

Harry Moon · #26 28-11-04, 04:56

Do you mean there are no Ubolts on the drivers side on a Hup? I have U bolts on both sides of all my CMP's.

cmperry4 · #27 28-11-04, 07:22

It may be because of the C8A's narrower axle, but on the HUP - perhaps this is unique to the staff car's longer springs - the spring retaining plate bolts directly to the axle mounting pad beside the diff on extended studs - here's one of my snaps - staff car also, which is the best view of have of the arrangement

Phil Waterman · #28 28-11-04, 22:52

Just walked out to the barn and took these two pictures of my HUPs front axle attachments.

RHClarke · #29 29-11-04, 01:10

Hello fellow HUPsters,

Does anyone have a photo of the downlinks for a 45 HUP? The earlier versions had shorter and somewhat flimsyer downlinks.

My HUP has some very interesting downlinks (the metal rod that connects the shock to the axle). It looks like someone with excellent welding skills welded two tie rod ends onto a metal shaft. However, the tie rod ends on the driver's side downlink are different than the pax side. I am guessing that they are not originals and would like to see what the originals looked like.

Better still - anyone got any for sale? My guess is that I will find them in the rocking horse dirt section...

R

Bob Carriere · #30 29-11-04, 03:54

Now I know the idiosyncracies of CMP......

Thanks God my C15a is straight forward with U bolts all around.

Thanks to the pictures......I can now understand Rob's concern about taking the parts to a machine shop to have the bolt and easy out zapped out.....

Nasty bit of a head ache there!!!!!!

I still think that welding a rod to the bolt or what is left of it... with a stick welder and applying "mucho" heat to the cast part of the axle might work....... may need more than one try.....

Good luck

Bob C.