19-Set Vario/Aerial Base Mounting Plate

[Tim Bell]

I have one of these plates... no bolts... if someone is making the bolts and the retaining spring clips, I would definitely be interested in a set.

Long shot here...

Is it possible that when the WS38 AFV was mounted on top of the WS19 in a Tank, it would have been onto one of these plates?

Wondering if I should be installing this plate when I put the WS19 into my Firefly in a couple of years time.

EDIT - Is it possible these bolts/screws, are the same as those which hold the WS19 control boxes to the back plates? The spring clips appear to be.. as per this pic...

ControlBox-SpringClip.jpg

Cheers

Tim

[David Dunlop]

Hello Tim. Yes that could be one and the same clip, though not totally certain at this point. Does the bottom of your plate have the same identification stencilled on it as Patrick's and the one here in Winnipeg?

So far, we seem to be aware of two variations on this item, these two in Canada are one and a second one Chris has ID'd from WFTW. If they are an evolution from one to the other in some way, or two distinctly different plates intended for differing specific usages, we are not yet certain.

It does not help at the moment I am without a working scanner. In Bill Gregg's 'Canadian Military Vehicle Profile Series'. Profile No. 5 for the Carrier, Universal, No.2 MkII*, there is a Ford of Canada photograph (U.C.W. 68) showing a plate installation along the same lines, mounted on top of a Mk II 19-Set. This plate has no folded edges front and rear and seems to be equipped with carry straps similar to those found on the larger Carriers No. 23. Quite different from the ZA-10465 ones here in Canada, but Chris will have to look at the Gregg photo to determine if this version matches what is in WFTW, or is yet another variation.

Interestingly, there is a Canadian Army publication dated October 1944, that provides comprehensive coverage of all the 19-Set equipment in use at that time. This plate is not listed at all, nor any other like it for that matter. Yet two show up postwar in Canada, one out of Minto Armoury here in Winnipeg and I am not certain of the history of Patricks down East.

The ZA-10465 plate might be late/post war. Not sure where the ZA Number would place it time wise. There is a photo in one of my books somewhere of an MB/GPW with a 19-Set in a back corner and one of these plate setups is installed on top of the set. Haven't been able to retrace the damn book yet to see if that photo will help clarify, or muddy, the waters further.

David

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Hello Tim. Yes that could be one and the same clip, though not totally certain at this point. Does the bottom of your plate have the same identification stencilled on it as Patrick's and the one here in Winnipeg?

So far, we seem to be aware of two variations on this item, these two in Canada are one and a second one Chris has ID'd from WFTW. If they are an evolution from one to the other in some way, or two distinctly different plates intended for differing specific usages, we are not yet certain.

It does not help at the moment I am without a working scanner. In Bill Gregg's 'Canadian Military Vehicle Profile Series'. Profile No. 5 for the Carrier, Universal, No.2 MkII*, there is a Ford of Canada photograph (U.C.W. 68) showing a plate installation along the same lines, mounted on top of a Mk II 19-Set. This plate has no folded edges front and rear and seems to be equipped with carry straps similar to those found on the larger Carriers No. 23. Quite different from the ZA-10465 ones here in Canada, but Chris will have to look at the Gregg photo to determine if this version matches what is in WFTW, or is yet another variation.

Interestingly, there is a Canadian Army publication dated October 1944, that provides comprehensive coverage of all the 19-Set equipment in use at that time. This plate is not listed at all, nor any other like it for that matter. Yet two show up postwar in Canada, one out of Minto Armoury here in Winnipeg and I am not certain of the history of Patricks down East.

The ZA-10465 plate might be late/post war. Not sure where the ZA Number would place it time wise. There is a photo in one of my books somewhere of an MB/GPW with a 19-Set in a back corner and one of these plate setups is installed on top of the set. Haven't been able to retrace the damn book yet to see if that photo will help clarify, or muddy, the waters further.

David

I had some success looking for "Round Wire Circlip" although most hits were for "snap rings". There are a couple of variations, supposedly used for shafts, and one of them is a dead ringer for the type used on the WS19 ancillaries.

If the "October 1944" publication is EMER Tels FZ256/3, it's a "Parts Identification List" and is nowhere near an exhaustive list, I'm afraid.

The stores codes (VAOS numbers) were issued in sequence as items were added "by Army Orders" as far as I'm aware. The early ones are an exception to this, since the original VAOS was simply an alphabetical list until they realised numbers would be much more efficient from a catalogue and ordering point of view and numbered the existing stores vocabularies sometime between 1938 and 1940. (That's why some very odd items (WW1 spark transmitters and early WW2 sets like the WS1 and WS11 have close stores numbers.)

WS19 MK.1 had stores code ZA.3155.
Satchel, Signals had stores code ZA.6292 despite being introduced 1n 1938.

WS19 Mk.II has stores code ZA.10178
WS19 MK.III has stores code ZA.10479

That would imply that the plate in question (ZA.10465) was introduced around the time the WS19 MK.III was being designed (developed during 1942, when the number would be allocated, issued in early 1943). It may well be a "general purpose" plate that replaced a variety of specific use items to reduce the number of individual stores items that needed to be carried.

It does not help matters that some items were allocated new numbers at various times!

Aha! Carrier, Set, No.25 is ZA.10463 so that plate would have been introduced at the same time, probably specifically for use with this carrier as it has the rectangular cut-out at the left-hand end to clear the end of the set retaining strap. An earlier plate would not need the notch as the clamping straps remained below the top of the set.

By the end of WW2 the numbering system had reached somewhere in the region of 30,000 (WS62) and was heading towards 50,000 in the 1950s when the NATO Stock Number took over. (The VAOS "Section" has survived as the "Domestic Management Code" or DMC to give storekeepers a clue as the where to look for stuff, so you now see Z1/nnnn-nn-nnn-nnnn (etc.) on items.)

Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

I have one of these plates... no bolts... if someone is making the bolts and the retaining spring clips, I would definitely be interested in a set.

Ditto here. I need to check if they are 2BA or 3/16" BSF - Wireless for the Warrior drawings claim 2BA cheese head screws but there are "inconsistencies" in the drawing (it shows an early plate, with only 6 holes for the aerial base and no cutout for the strap, with an adapter plate and Larkspur J1 box).

I think we may have two varieties:

Plate & Bracket Assembly No.1, with one set of holes to take aerial base, variometer and a single sized control unit. Used with Carrier No.1 (or 21), and possibly with the (British) WS19HP, when it sits on top of the RF amplifier. (For that you need another bracket on the top of the supply unit to take the Condenser X5, 5kV for protection against overhead cables.)

There may well be other plates (e.g. one to take a double-size control unit (3 or 3A, I think) on top of the set for the Daimler Scout Car (Dingo)) with different sizes and hole patterns for other installations.

Plates, Mounting, No.1 with two sets of holes (some common to both orientations) and a rectangular notch for Carrier No.23. This can be used for LH or RH installations in, for example, an LCV.

There was an enormous amount of specialised mounting hardware (without considering limited field adaptations for special purposes or 'D' Day invasion vehicles), and most of it was probably smelted as the vehicles were sold off.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

Long shot here...

Is it possible that when the WS38 AFV was mounted on top of the WS19 in a Tank, it would have been onto one of these plates?

Very, VERY unlikely. There would have been carriers specific to the WS38AFV manufactured - they made a couple of different types for the non-AFV install in the Churchill, after all - but they're not in the 1957 "Carriers Set Various" Illustrated Parts List, which is something of a bugger.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

Wondering if I should be installing this plate when I put the WS19 into my Firefly in a couple of years time.

Definitely not. The plate is specifically for a demountable set in a 'B' vehicle. Your Firefly will have a presumably modified Sherman install, with the standard "Variometer mounted vertically and aerial feeder No.4 through the turret roof". There's a Centurion Mk.V install shown in WftW Vol 2 with two carriers, one on the supply unit to take the AFV supply unit and LF Amplifier, the second on the set to take the WS38AFV. This might be Carriers No.37 & 38 which appear to have the correct shape and late WW2 stores codes (ZA.26339 and ZA.26340 with later fixings). Firefly may well have used something entirely different.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

EDIT - Is it possible these bolts/screws, are the same as those which hold the WS19 control boxes to the back plates? The spring clips appear to be..

No, the control unit screws are entirely different, and hex heads make a lot more sense for the mounting plate.

Regards,
Chris.

[Tim Bell]

Chris

Thanks for the info.

I got the plate to install with my WSC as indicated in Pamphlet "Wireless Sets No 19, 19 HP, 19/19, HP/19 in Trucks 15 CWT, 4x4 Personnel and Trucks, 15 CWT, Half-Tracked, Personnel", "Fitting Instructions", Jan 1945.

In this there are some line drawings which appear to show the plate mounted on top of the WS19 and also on top of the WS19 HP... and in the manual there are frequent references to the ATU and Control box being mounted with screws on...

Wireless Sets No 19, Plate, Mounting No 1.

Alas no ZA number given for this part.

However, I then acquired and fitted the Canadian WS9... so the plate never got used.

I will retain the plate though as in the short term, it may be the only way I do get to mount the WS38AFV... though initially to keep things simple (and given a lack of documentation and pictures) I will only install the standard WS19 set up... and also, a lack of suitable bolts to attach it to the top of the WS19 make using it a bit harder too.

Cheers

Tim

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

Chris

Thanks for the info.

I got the plate to install with my WSC as indicated in Pamphlet "Wireless Sets No 19, 19 HP, 19/19, HP/19 in Trucks 15 CWT, 4x4 Personnel and Trucks, 15 CWT, Half-Tracked, Personnel", "Fitting Instructions", Jan 1945.

In this there are some line drawings which appear to show the plate mounted on top of the WS19 and also on top of the WS19 HP... and in the manual there are frequent references to the ATU and Control box being mounted with screws on...

Wireless Sets No 19, Plate, Mounting No 1.

Alas no ZA number given for this part.

That will be in the "Installation Kit List", which in your case you have not got[1].

Does your plate have the L.H. notch and duplicated hole patterns?

The White Scout Car, being an open topped vehicle would be a good use for those plates, as any fixed aerial bases could be fed from the one on the plate with a standard feeder cable (plug that simulates an 'F' rod, length of P11 cable and a spade or ring terminal). Quick to connect or disconnect, and the whole set is demountable for ground use if required.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

However, I then acquired and fitted the Canadian WS9... so the plate never got used.

I will retain the plate though as in the short term, it may be the only way I do get to mount the WS38AFV... though initially to keep things simple (and given a lack of documentation and pictures) I will only install the standard WS19 set up... and also, a lack of suitable bolts to attach it to the top of the WS19 make using it a bit harder too.

Cheers

Tim

Depending on the introduction date of the Firefly, you ought to be able to fit a WS19 Mk.III with Canadian supply unit (or the U.S. Mk.II with Eicor supply unit) and dispense with the battery selector box as they can both run off 24 volt 2 or 3 wire systems.

As for bolts, I think we need 2BA set screws, and I will work out the length necessary and order some - if they're under 1" long they're only 20p each.

I don't have a lathe right now (house move and hostile ex-family) so can't machine suitable grooves to make them captive screws.

The Part 0 EMER for the WS38AFV shows a steel angle frame with what looks like webbing securing straps to fit on the WS19. It might be a fairly simple job to mock this one up. (I doubt that anyone would be in a position to challenge its authenticity, given the rate of equipment development in WW2.)

The Centurion (O.P. Tank) with WS38AFV install is definitely post-WW2, and someone on the WS19 group was recently extremely confused by a supposedly WS19HP control lead (12-pt - 12-pt with 2-pin socket) that put the amplifier onto continuous transmit. The "control" socket was connected across 12V instead of in series with HT2+ and was obviously from the WS38AFV kit (which taps 12V from the split primary of the Canadian dynamotor supply unit).

Chris.
[1] cf: "The naming of parts." Henry Reed

[Patrick Johnson]

I'll be back in my shop on Saturday and will photograph the bolt next to an imperial tape measure so that measurements can be determined by all. Is there any chance some of these bolts or retaining rings could be found NOS from British Fasteners or the other company (insert name here) in the US? Perhaps once I provide a picture a forum member could approach these companies to see if they have any in stock?
If there are any other pictures of items on the mounting plate please let me know and I'll post this weekend. I may also post a series of "oddities" from my collection of WS19 parts in the coming weeks to see if someone can identify them.
Thanks for everyone's input, all this information makes for a great informative read!

[David Dunlop]

Here is a photograph of the plate shown in a No.2 Mk II* Cdn Carrier. Sorry for the low resolution but the most obvious differences with this plate assembly are the length (covering both PSU and Transceiver), the open front edge showing the four mounting spacers/feet along the front edge, and the carry straps either end. Pretty hefty straps, so I am thinking they might pass underneath the entire wireless assembly.

Interesting the accessories on top are still the Variometer, Aerial Base (No. 8 this time around) and the Control Box No.1.


David

[Patrick Johnson]

Here are the pictures providing all the dimensions of the retaining ring and bolt. The bolt head accepts a 5/16" socket. The third photo shows the bolts and lock washer combination used to hold the Control Unit to the mounting plate, its bolt head matches a 7/16" socket.
David requested the length of cable connecting the Variometer to the aerial, it measures a clear 4-1/4" between the metal fasteners at each end.
A question: is that likely Cadmium plating midway on the retaining bolt below the threads?

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Here is a photograph of the plate shown in a No.2 Mk II* Cdn Carrier. Sorry for the low resolution but the most obvious differences with this plate assembly are the length (covering both PSU and Transceiver), the open front edge showing the four mounting spacers/feet along the front edge, and the carry straps either end. Pretty hefty straps, so I am thinking they might pass underneath the entire wireless assembly.

Interesting the accessories on top are still the Variometer, Aerial Base (No. 8 this time around) and the Control Box No.1.


David

I've seen that variety of top plate on a Scandinavian (Danish/Swedish?) post-WW2 WS19 setup at the War & Peace show recently. I didn't see any carrying straps (it seemed to be on a standard No.1 (or 21) carrier), but those handles would be necessary if you ever needed to lift it out of the "bin" on that UC install. The No.8 serial base indicates US or Canada - I don't think the USA ever produced the No.10 base, they just stuck with making Mk.II sets with the final upgrade to the complete station being the Eicor supply unit.

That may be an early "demountable" install, it's hard to tell from the photo.

The carrying straps are probably fastened to the ends of the set carrier "channels", like on the Carrier No.25 (which they look very similar to).

Chris.