Drag Ropes: How are they used??

[rob love]

I have to ask if anyone has reference in any of the British artillery manuals as to the proper use of the drag ropes. I have seen two sizes of the ropes; a smaller diameter rope for use with the 6 pounder, and a larger diameter hemp rope for the 25 pounder. There are rings and links on one end of the end of the rope, and a hook on the other.

I am assuming that the different design of the rims, with the little claws on the edges, have something to do with the drag ropes, but I cannot figure out what the correct drills are. Checking my 25 pounder manuals I can find nothing. Also, the 6 pounder claws seem better suited to adapting to the ropes...the 25 poundr claws are not the same.

Can someone enlighten me? Surely there is more to it than in the illustration below?

Also, why did the guns use the 3 piece rims (rim with ring and locking ring) when the other CMPs simply used the 2 piece rims. Surely the little claws could have been welded to the 2 piece CMP rim. The 2 piece is certainly a much safer design. I always have a healthy fear working with the 3 piece rims, and have had to scrap a couple of the rings at work due to unsafe distortion.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Either a straight pull as in your drawing, or.... (it takes a modeler to work out this type of detail )

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...=230240&page=2

[rob love]

I saw that photo as well Hanno, but the 25 pounder rim does not have the same claws. The claws are also on the inside of the rims. I believe one end of the rope has two short chains. Could they each be attached to one side of the rim onto opposing claws, and the rope is dragged over the tire for mechanical advantage?

There has to be something in one of the manuals...surely it was not just conjecture on how to use these things?

[Wayne Henderson]

Great illustration of 6 guys who have never moved a 25 pdr before.

I once asked the RAAHS boys about drag ropes, for the use of, and the polite answer had something to do with having a truck and 6 blokes and if my mum knew who my father was.

Also depends what frogs/chains the drag rope has, hooks or rings.

Years ago I saw some photos of boys dragging 25's up mud hills in PNG and they were using ropes and the lower ranks, nothing wrapped around rims though.

[rob love]

Looking at Hannos photo above, I think it might be wrong. I believe the 6 pounder also has hooks on opposite sides of each rim. The inner hooks would not work out if you are merely using the rope with the hook.

There are two ends to a drag rope. There is a simple hook, which I suspect would be used to hook directly onto the ring. This would be for pulling such as in the photo...on relatively even ground.

Then there is the end with two short chains and rings. I think the rings go on the hooks, and the rope ends up straddling the center of the tire. You would only get a couple feet before you run out of leverage and rope, so I suspect this method is to get it out of a rut or over a small obstacle, at times when you are struggling to get the gun a foot at a time.

I'll try it at work tomorrow on a 25 pounder and see how it works out.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

Great illustration of 6 guys who have never moved a 25 pdr before.

I once asked the RAAHS boys about drag ropes, for the use of, and the polite answer had something to do with having a truck and 6 blokes and if my mum knew who my father was.

Also depends what frogs/chains the drag rope has, hooks or rings.

Years ago I saw some photos of boys dragging 25's up mud hills in PNG and they were using ropes and the lower ranks, nothing wrapped around rims though.

A very colourful posting! Thanks for the smiles. When you used the word 'frogs', I half anticipated an insult of the French, but no it was a technical term.

[lynx42]

A 6'' gun being hauled across rough ground. I guess the principle is the same for the 25pdr. and 6pdr. as well.

Regards Rick.

[Private_collector]

How was the gun pulled onto the platform?

Were the ropes also used for that?

Incidentally, if anyone is needing 25pr pull ropes, I know an Aust source. Even have the leather piece still supple.

[jack neville]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

How was the gun pulled onto the platform?

Were the ropes also used for that?

Incidentally, if anyone is needing 25pr pull ropes, I know an Aust source. Even have the leather piece still supple.

Attachment 88859

Easiest way is with the truck. Same as it is pulled off the platform. But can be done by hand.

[CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé]

Do you have the adress of this firm?
Gilles

Originally Posted by Private_collector

How was the gun pulled onto the platform?

Were the ropes also used for that?

Incidentally, if anyone is needing 25pr pull ropes, I know an Aust source. Even have the leather piece still supple.

Attachment 88859

[rob love]

Originally Posted by CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé

Do you have the adress of this firm?
Gilles

Gilles:


http://www.timvibert.com.au/index.ph...2FCollectibles

[rob love]

So I pulled out a couple of 25 pounder ropes here at work and tried them out. It will be as I described earlier. The short chains go on the hooks of the rim on opposite sides, and the rope, which will now be centered on the rubber of the tire (tyre for those from the old country) is pulled to give mechanical advantage. On the other end of the rope is a straight hook which can be used in the ring on the hub. Mind you, our NOS cable, the hook will have to be trimmed to fit the hub ring. The older ones fit OK.

Here are some photos showing the hook up of the drag ropes,. I also took a photo of a 6 pdr and hub rim to show that the alignment would not work to use it as shown by the modellers in Hanno's photo. The ring is not in alignment with the claws...I think the rope would tend to jump off the claws. Far more likely it is meant for the two rings on the short ends to catch the claws, as is the case on the 25 pdrs.

[Robin Craig]

This thread is proving how the skills sets are fading so very fast and how important it is to discuss these things and archive them

[rob love]

Robin: The lifespan of an answer like this is only as long as the website stays alive. There are very few perpetual sites.

Just to double the odds of it surviving though, I posted the same photos and answer over on the modeller's site where the 6 pounder photo and explanation came from. One of the first google searches I did on the subject led me to there. After all, our interests are similar, I just prefer 1:1 scale modelling.

I would still like to find the answers in a manual, although, after attaching the ropes today to the guns, I am pretty certain I have it right. The 25 pdr manual does mention that the little tabs on the rims are for the drag ropes, it just doesn't say how.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

Great illustration of 6 guys who have never moved a 25 pdr before.

Well, from experience I can tell you that the guy at the barrel has a very important job to do. If the fellow at the lunnette holding the handspike lets go at that level of elevation, the gun is going to nose in. Trust me, they are very heavy and hard to make right again without use of a vehicle.

Myself and one other fellow were setting up a display at an old folks home when we nosed in with a 25 pounder. I literally lifted the other guy off the ground. There was an old artillery veteran sitting on a bench watching us and chuckling when it happenned. We asked him if he had ever done that. With a glimmer in his eye, he answered "oh yes".

We had to hook the Bren gun Carrier onto it and block the wheels to get it to come back down.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

With the mention of moving 25 pounders, my grandfather was in the 2/1st Pioneers and it is reported that ...."after two days in Port Moresby, A, B, and C Companies moved to Owers’ Corner at the base of the Kokoda Trail and up the track through Uberi to Ioribaiwa. The battalion patrolled and manned defensive positions along Imita Ridge and helped the 14th Field Regiment move their 25-pounder guns up the track to the foot of Imita Ridge". (Accessed February 28, 2017 from: https://www.awm.gov.au/unit/U56185

So I suppose there was the odd trick learned about how to get them up a mountain side.



Photographs sourced from the Australian War Memorial - Accessed Tuesday, 28 February 2017 from:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/027024;
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02424.024; and https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02424.004

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé

Do you have the adress of this firm?
Gilles

Gilles,

I've sent you a long laborious PM.

[tankbarrell]

Originally Posted by rob love

I would still like to find the answers in a manual, although, after attaching the ropes today to the guns, I am pretty certain I have it right. The 25 pdr manual does mention that the little tabs on the rims are for the drag ropes, it just doesn't say how.

I am certain you are right, it's the only way I have been able to make it work. It's the only logical way really.
I have seen a more detailed explanation in a manual, somewhere..... I'll try to find it.

[Private_collector]

Hopefully more detailed than these entries.

Complete bollock, so far as useful information goes.

And it took two different manuals to tell so little.

[Andrew Davis]

This photo taken from the Internet. British ww2 or Korea, 5.5" gun I believe.

[rob love]

Excellent photo Andrew, thanks, and certainly supports my theory on how the ropes were attached.

If there ws ever a need for mechanical advantage, pulling a 5.5" over rough ground would be it.

[motto]

The photos that Lionel posted on #16 are a good illustration of the reason for the development of the short 25 pdr. The ability to quickly get a gun to where it is needed in difficult terrain would be greatly enhanced by such a variant.
Plenty of rope used on that job.

David

[rob love]

The official answer is in the Gun Drill Manual. I have copied the relevant para below:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
394. Dragropes.--These may be used for a direct pull attached to the drag washers, or a double leverage may be obtained by the use of a wheel purchase.
In attaching dragropes to the drag washers, the back of the hook should be downward, for ease of attaching and because the hook cannot then catch in obstacles such as undergrowth or wire.
In making a wheel purchase, the rings at the ends of the dragrope chains are attached to the hooks on either side of the wheel, as low down as possible on the side away from the direction of the required pull. The dragrope is then laid upon the circumference of the tyre, and the pull must be in line with the wheel. In moving the gun uphill or across heavy ground by wheel purchase, it is often best to move one wheel at a time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that in the Queen's English, purchase means: noun: a hold or position on something for applying power advantageously, or the advantage gained by such application.
verb: haul in (a rope or cable) or haul up (an anchor) by means of a pulley, lever, etc.

As a sidenote, I ordered in a pair of the dragropes from Tim at Empire trading, and they were here within a week. Mint condition, although there is a variation in the size of the hook from the Canadian dragrope.

[Rob Beale]

Would someone please provide details of the length and rope diameter of the various drag ropes? Specifically the 25pdr, 6 pdr and 18 pdr. Also 15pdr.

I purchased a 25 pdr rope from Tim while at Corowa last month, so would like to compare with this one. We have a 6pdr in our local club and friends have a replica 18 pdr they pull with their horse team.

Has anyone got a copy of "Early British QF Artillery" to check please?
We have yet to get the 15pdr on wheels, but will need to equip it with drag ropes too.

regards
Rob

[rnixartillery]

I have an original spanner for and marked 15 pdr ,I also have some 12 pdr drag ropes which I believe were exactly the same drag rope used with the 15 pdr , all for sale !
Pm me your email address and I will send some pics.

Rob............rnixartillery

[rob love]

There are some dimensions on this other drag rope thread, but mostly for the 6 pdr and the 25 pdr: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27265

Notable is the model number for one of the two available 25pr ropes as being no1mk1 model. This could indicate that the ropes were used on other pieces and may date back to earlier guns. The other rope model is no5mk1. The 6pr rope model is given as no2mk1.

[Mike Cecil]

Rob Beale,

Trewin's Early British QF Artillery page 386 states:

'Drag Ropes. There were two classes: heavy and light. Both classes had similar terminal fittings; at one end was a black painted iron hook, the other end was a leather lined eye-splice.These were of two classes, heavy and light. The heavy drag rope hook had a slot to take a tie attached to the shank. The drag rope was 3 inch white rope, thirty feet in length. It was issued to all siege guns and howitzers.

The light drag rope was a two inch white rope, fifteen feet in length. It was issued to BL 12 pdr and BL 15 pdr guns and BL 5 inch howitzers.'

The 1952 Australian 25pdr QF user handbook simply states 'Ropes, Drag, No.1 or No.5' in the tool/stores list, and on para 297 states 'these are 30 feet of white rope with two thimbles hook and chain'.

Regards

Mike

[Rob Beale]

25 pdr has the heavy drag ropes of 3" rope (=1" dia) x 30' long
6 pdr has the light drag ropes of 2" rope (5/8" dia) x 15' 6"long

Both ropes have steel thimbles in the spliced loops at both ends
with a drag link with a leather strap at one end for the drag washer on the axle,
and a ring with a pair of chains at other end for the wheel lugs on the pneumatic tyres.


18 pdr and 15 pdr and 12 pdr each have the light drag ropes 2" rope x 15 foot long.
These ropes have a leather lined loop at one end and a plain drag link at the other end. (Not sure if this end has a thimble or leather lining).


From other reading it seems early drag ropes often had wooden poles or rope nooses along the length to give the troops better purchase.
The longer ropes are thicker as they will carry a greater load with more people pulling on them.


Many thanks to Rob L, Rob N and Mike for your excellent prompt help.
I am not a gunner but an ex infanteer who is fascinated by the extent of the gear used to move the guns and to equip them. Serendipity rules!

Rob B

[tankbarrell]

Rob, where did the info regarding the length of the 6pdr ropes come from?

[Rob Beale]

Rob Love sent me this link:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27265

Rob