Armoured Snowmobile manual

[BCA]

I am reproducing of the rare Illustrated Parts List B-SNOW-03 for the Mk 1 Canadian Armoured Snowmobile, January 1945 for another collector. If interested in a very nice copy of this well-illustrated, 143p book then PM me. ....... Brian

[BCA]

Thanks to those who expressed an interest in this rare manual. The limited production run had been done.... Brian

[David Dunlop]

Brian. Are there any clues in the parts manual to the construction of these vehicles?

I was looking at a detailed set of photos of the survivor in Rome last night and it would appear the horizontal section of fenders are 1/2 inch plywood set in angle iron frames. In addition, the entire upper superstructure, covering the two crew compartments and engine bay are also angle framed and plywood. Side shots appear to be of identical profile to similar photos of the Armored Snowmobile in service in Canada. Now I am curious if this was standard construction or a repro effort on the Rome vehicle.

Looking down on the top of the Rome example, the two crew compartments are covered over with each having a large round access ring, with a padded circumference. Looks like canvas covers could be fitted to these openings from the outside when the vehicle was parked to keep the weather out.

Headlamp looks Lucas and the horn Ford CMP.

David

[Bob Phillips]

Hi David
I read your comments with interest, I also note that side decks are plywood and I believe that top of the passenger compartment is a plywood retro fit to keep the driver/passenger protected from the elements. Will look again to see if upper super structure is wood-should be metal. The manual has only 2-3 pages covering the hull no mention of wood except in title description as runningboards and floorboards. No illustrations. I note that the exhaust appears to b e standard Ford CMP mufflers repiped to fit this machine. There is a good article may 1977 by Joe Sauve in a modeller magazine( Airfix?) worth checking out if you have not seen it. BP

[David Dunlop]

Hi, Bob.

To me, this is the most fascinating vehicle built by Canada during the war. That so few have survived (2?) in anything potentially close to original completeness, just adds to the intrigue.

Until finding the file of photos documenting the Rome survivor, the only photos, drawings or films I had ever seen were all ground level shots, with next to no useful upper deck detail.

The two aeroscreens on the Rome vehicle appear to be correct and mounted in the correct locations. Much of the upper hull detail from the sides, also matches in detail other photos I have seen. Film clips clearly show these vehicles were fast travelling on deep snow!

Keeping the weather out while keeping weight down, also plays into Bombardier's skill in designing the bigger cousin to the Armoured Snowmobile. It's body is plywood construction over steel frame, so the idea the wooden upper hull on the AS is original design, fits well. Bombardier were no strangers to the concept.

Would have been nice to have more paperwork on the Armoured Snowmobile to review, or photos taken in service showing better upper hull/top deck details. Personal knowledge from some of the guys who drove them would be a great help as well.

Guess we've pretty much hijacked Brian's thread now.

David

[Ed Storey]

I agree with Bob that the plywood crew compartment on the Italian machine appears to be a retrofit. The Italian vehicle appears to be missing some other details where as the Russian example looks to be more complete.

Here are a couple of photographs of Canadian machines on Exercise in Churchill in 1946.

[David Dunlop]

Thanks for posting these photos, Ed.

The left sponson box looks to be an armoured bin for the 19-Set. B-Set aerial base set in forward outer corner, with perhaps a strap iron brush guard aft of it for the A-Set aerial. That is quite an interesting mount and base combination for the A-Set aerial as well.

Take a look at the cover over the 'Engine Compartment', immediately forward of the screened section of top hull. It looks to be divided into two sections across the vehicle, at the mid point. It also does not look all that flat in either photo. Could this cover be canvas or wood, perhaps? Showing a little waviness with age? Could it fold open from either end? Would the small circular opening at the back be for checking radiator fluid/oil?

Also very intriguing, as I know very little about these machines. (A) What is the nature of the small cylindrical tank running along the upper left rear side of the screened section? (B) there is a very large vertical, curved structure at the right rear corner of the vehicle. Would this be an armoured fuel tank?

Damn!!! I WANT ONE!!!

Thanks again, Ed.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

To me, this is the most fascinating vehicle built by Canada during the war. That so few have survived (2?) in anything potentially close to original completeness, just adds to the intrigue.

It's on my favourites list as well, for sure. There are various thread on this vehicle here on this forum and umpteen years ago I wrote a webpage on the Armoured Snowmobile, which now resides here: T16 Universal Carrier > Canadian Armoured Snowmobile (even in the digital world nothing is eternal, so many of the links no longer work - sorry for that.)

As for survivors, back then Jim Webster (by way of Gordon McMillan) noted:

• "Some went to Yugoslavia [100+] in the late 40's and one was even seen, apparently, during the late civil war carrying a quad .50cal mount. I spotted that in an intelligence document and I'll see if I can get an image."
• "An unknown quantity were sold to Turkey in 1947 and three survivors are in a scrapyard somewhere near Amasya if I recall correctly".

HTH,
Hanno

[David Dunlop]

Well, Hanno. Your Armoured Snowmobile site solved one mystery! The vertical curved item at the right rear side of the vehicle protects the engine air cleaner. Seems an odd place to locate it, however, immediately behind/above the track assembly. The amount of debris the tracks could kick up could make for frequent inspections and servicing.

David

[Bob Phillips]

Great pictures Ed !
Looks like I may be wrong about plywood crew covers...In " Design Record", vol 8 (Army Engineering Design Branch) it states " To minimize crew exposure due to the open top hull, two man-hole type flat plywood covers were installed over the drivers and observers seats. The front cover was hinged to the body of the vehicle so that they could be folded out of the way when not in use. Although of simple construction and easy to operate, it was found that the crews movements were somewhat hampered when the covers were in the closed position" . I don't know enough about military protocol to know if this was recognition after the fact or whether the plywood top was officially sanctioned and promoted.
Most of the 410 built were converted to close bodied machines. This was done in Ottawa at Ottawa Car and Foundry ( think that correct) and I have a couple of unpublished photos of the new machines with their numbers on the assembly lines. B.P

[Bob Phillips]

So an update- my memory fails again- I have checked my photos-
the armoured snowmobiles converted by Ottawa Car and Aircraft probably only number 11 or so.They are the three front window version used in the north in Operation Muskox. My photos show as many as 6 vehicles lined up on the factory floor being converted to closed cab style. One view shows 2 machines in a front 3/4 view and written on the fender in what looks like grease pencil/marker are the number 10 and on a second 8 and the third maybe 1 or 11. One photo of a completed vehicle has the number 76-749 stenciled on the front fender. One of the photos has written on the back..." Ottawa 1946, Musk-ox Experimental vehicles for arctic, Ottawa Car and Aircraft" These photos came from the estate of my Father in Law who was employed there for a few years after the war. By the way we are running two parallel threads here, maybe Hanno can merge them together?? BP

[David Dunlop]

Following on Bob's idea, it would make sense if Hanno could pool all Armoured Snowmobile and related Pengiun threads together considering the strong relationship between the two vehicles.

Based on your information, Bob, we can assume for the time being that of the original 11 Armoured Snowmobiles in the Canadian inventory, most or all were converted to Penguins in 1946 by Ottawa Car and Aircraft. Second, assuming none of these ever went back to a shop for a major change/rebuild, they could be unique and readily identifiable by data plates bearing the OC&A identification, and most if not all lower hull assemblies would show some sign of being cut down original armour plate.

If Canadian Arsenals then took on building more Penguins, two possibilities exist: more original Armoured Snowmobiles were reaquired and brought back to Canada for modification, and their lower hulls will also be cut down armour, but they will have CAL data plates, or CAL took original plans, modified the lower hull design and built essentially brand new vehicles from regular steel plate.

I wonder if any of the surviving Armoured Snowmobile manuals might indicate if hull numbers were ever stamped anywhere on the body of the vehicle itself, in a location that might have survived the conversion process? If so, Penguin owners could check their vehicles for surviving numbers and see if and how they might match up on the OC&A or CAL data plates.

David

[Bob Phillips]

Just a couple of things;
415 machines originally ordered, 410 built most (400?) for export.
Built by Farand and Delorme, Montreal.
Surviving mk 2 or 3 versions (as per yellow example on other thread) have an obvious bit of lower front armour. You can see it on the first of Eds pictures and again on the yellow machine below the front cab. The early MK1 ? version built in 1946/Ottawa does NOT have the obvious armour plate sticking down below the front cab.It has been removed and replaced with a bumber type crosss bar and front fender . This suggests that the few surviving Mk2/3 versions are not from the 11 conversions done in Montreal, but from some other source.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

In " Design Record", vol 8 (Army Engineering Design Branch) it states " To minimize crew exposure due to the open top hull, two man-hole type flat plywood covers were installed over the drivers and observers seats. The front cover was hinged to the body of the vehicle so that they could be folded out of the way when not in use. Although of simple construction and easy to operate, it was found that the crews movements were somewhat hampered when the covers were in the closed position" . I don't know enough about military protocol to know if this was recognition after the fact or whether the plywood top was officially sanctioned and promoted.

Looks you are correct on the plywood, Bob. These pictures show the Kubinka survivor under restoration, showing the quite extensive use of wood. "Woody snowmobile"?!!



Pictures courtesy of Yuri Pasholok: http://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/8710201.html



PS: will merge threads later

[David Dunlop]

Great photos, Hanno. When you look back at Ed's photo post #6, you can see the angled wood/steel seam on top of the right front fender.

These things are just getting more and more interesting!

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I agree with Bob that the plywood crew compartment on the Italian machine appears to be a retrofit. The Italian vehicle appears to be missing some other details where as the Russian example looks to be more complete.

Here are a couple of photographs of Canadian machines on Exercise in Churchill in 1946.

Attachment 88697

Attachment 88698

In the lower picture you can see the aerial base for a Canadian No.29 wireless set. The 29 was in development right at the end of the war so it was on 'trials' too it appears.

[David Dunlop]

Given the apparent extensive use of plywood in the upper hulls of the Armoured Snowmobile, I am now rethinking the conversion process of them to early Penguins.

From the newly posted photos of the surviving Russian machine, it looks like a fair bit of the forward plate was either bolted, or riveted in place. There may not have been much cutting off of upper armour as I had originally assumed to reduce a complete AS to just it's lower hull assembly, ready for modification to a Penguin.

Be interesting to examine an early Penguin to see how the replacement upper hull was fitted. Might be easier than we suspected to restore one back to original AS configuration.

David

[Bob Phillips]

It does seem unfortunate that as unique a Canadian vehicle as the armored snowmobile can only be found in Italy or Russia. I believe the War Museum has 2 examples of the Penguin versions but there are no plans that I am aware of for restoration- here is an interesting Operation Muskox ? photo

[Jordan Baker]

Found a pile of colour Operation Muskox photos online.

[Jordan Baker]

And some more

[Jordan Baker]

And more still

[Jordan Baker]

And yet even more

[Jordan Baker]

And even still more

[Jordan Baker]

And yet still even more

[Jordan Baker]

And some more

[Jordan Baker]

And the last one

[rob love]

There is a neat shot of the blank fire Bren in a couple of those photos. Notice the odd muzzle BFA, and the yellow handle, along with yellow band on the carry handle and the butt.

Thanks for sharing the photos Jordan.

[derk derin]

Yes, great shots and love the red cross on one of the vehicles!
Derk