VC up for auction

[Bruce MacMillan]

Another bit of Canadian history available to the highest bidder.
https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catal...10300&search=1

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Bruce MacMillan

Canadian history available to the highest bidder.

Quote: ".. together with applicable local taxes if purchased by a Canadian Citizen."

And perversely, should a Canadian wish to be that highest bidder to retain this history in Canada, they will be penalised with additional taxes that presumably a foreigner is not required to pay.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Oh yes, the foreigner will have to pay taxes and import duties.

You know what they say: there are only 2 things certain in life - death and taxes....

[cletrac (RIP)]

There are no taxes on used items coming into Canada.

[rob love]

But there are taxes if it's in Canada, as these are. While the auctioneers are overseas, the medals are still here. Furthermore, to be removed their export has to be approved by the cultural exports act. As such, the auction house has indicated it will not accept payment until the export is approved.

[Ed Storey]

If past history is any indication, the CWM will be 'opening the financial purse strings' of the nation in order to add this medal set to their collection.

[rob love]

....and less wealthy museums will be opening the debate about whether medals should be available to the highest bidder.

[jdmcm]

No taxes on "used" items coming into Canada? I beg to differ...I have imported several "used" tanks and paid taxes on all of them...as well as any associated used parts...there is no shortage of tax on used items coming into Canada...I don't see why these medals would be any different...

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by jdmcm

No taxes on "used" items coming into Canada? I beg to differ...I have imported several "used" tanks and paid taxes on all of them...as well as any associated used parts...there is no shortage of tax on used items coming into Canada...I don't see why these medals would be any different...

IMHO, jdmcm is correct. A buyer would pay thirteen percent harmonized tax in Ontario.
No HST on items being exported. from Canada. HST of 13% = 5% federal plus 8% provincial sales tax.
The London, UK based auction house charge 20% on the hammer.
There are VAT tax implications for items destined within the EU that may not be required to be paid by a Canadian based buyer.
An atypical sale with the action house located in the U.K., requiring payment in Pounds Sterling, the sale item located in Canada?


There appears to be public funds available to designated organizations to assist with the purchase of Canadian cultural heritage moveable property, including the purchase at auction of such an item. The Canadian War Museum is named in the designated list. A non designated organization may also apply for funds. Pubic vs private funds. Ah, Tony S.: not only will a Canadian private bidder have taxes and fees to pay, . . . will they also bid against their own tax dollars?

Past recorded sales:
See: http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/aaauctio.htm

A former sale of a VC awarded to a Canadian:
See:http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/bbshankl.htm


I wonder who authenticates the actual item to verify it has not been replaced by a copy? Not to suggest any impropriety in any manner what-so-ever, but I expect a buyer would want some assurance before signing over the estimated value plus what may amount to somewhere between 33% to 40% hammer and sales tax, before any foreign currency exchange as applicable.

How many original Canadian VC awards have been reported as stolen in the Province of Ontario, Canada? Was it three? One from the RCR museum, London, Ontario, one from the Royal Canadian Military Institute in Toronto, Ontario, the third from the Canadian War Museum, Ottawa, Ontario, since recovered in Hamilton, Ontario. Imagine covering a theft by substituting the original item with a copy.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Mainstream media have picked up on this story:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...t-won-11011644

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by Michael R.

...I wonder who authenticates the actual item to verify it has not been replaced by a copy?...

Rest assured that like any other collectible that one might shell out 6-7 figures for, it will be more than adequately authenticated. The Medal collecting hobby is no different. Plus it is coming from a reputable collector straight from the family.

Medals, after leaving the service, are private property chaps. Private property. If you dislike the legal sale of medals from recipients or heirs then you dislike the sale of Great grandma's house, Old Uncle Claude's car, Auntie's tea set, grandpa's fishing pole, my used children's clothing, etc.....or even your MVs, for that matter.

I get the importance-thing but let's not let communism rule us just yet. If it is important to Canada then write the Govm't and make sure they buy it. What's 1.5 Mil compared to what they throw away. Is 1.5 mil as important as 10.5 mil? LOL.

regards
Darrell (Medal Collector)

[Ed Storey]

I believe that the CWM has their own agent who they use to purchase these big ticket medals and they also have their own appraiser to assess the medals.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The debate continues:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/s...cked-1.4257683

[Robert Bergeron]

OMG : LCol Currie's VC !

At whatever cost , these must remain in Canada and on public display.

We need to pay more attention and respect to our heroes in this country.

On another note , what Her Majesty giveth , her Majesty can yank back at her pleasure , with compensation of course....

[Ed Storey]

Is the Currie VC the only SWW Canadian one not on public display or was that statement just CBC hype?

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Is the Currie VC the only SWW Canadian one not on public display or was that statement just CBC hype?

That statement came from Tanya. I saw a little table of the locations of the other 14 or 15 VCs.

[Ed Storey]

Yes the Ottawa Citizen printed a table of who holds each SWW Canadian VC but does that mean the ones held by museums are actually on display?

[Jon Skagfeld]

I wonder if Lord Ashcroft will make a bid?

If he's successful, that would make 163 in his VC collection...or would it be 165?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Sold!

A Victoria Cross and eight other medals awarded to a Saskatchewan soldier were auctioned in the U.K. on Wednesday, and sold for $550,000 Cdn.

Private British collector purchases medal, but must apply for export permit to remove it from Canada

Read more at http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...tion-1.4308634

[Robert Bergeron]

OMG Hanno ! Not just a soldier from Saskatchewan but a Canadian national hero !

I distinctly remember serving at Currie Barracks in Calgary while working alongside the LDSH ( Lord Stratcona Horse , an armoured unit ) early in my career. It made an impression. He was God there.

I am not sure if now everyone ( including the Minister ) understands the national historic and military significance of these medals.

I hope her recent dealings with Netflix did not obscure or distract her attention to the point of letting these go to private hands outCan.

In CANADA we need and ought to recognize and cherish our national heroes goddamit !

We have few that were recognized but there were many more. So please , please let's treat them ( the ones that were ) like royalty.

I am a collector and I believe in private property . But as everything else in life there are limits ! In my opinion this is a case were the public should be able to revere and reflect over these medals in a proper public display.

OF INTEREST : At The Toronto Staff College Officer's Mess , there is a room were all Canadian recipients of the VC are remembered . AWESOME. Never felt so sad , proud and at the same time humbled . A lot are posthumous. Kind of the same feeling I got when I visited the Peace tower in Ottawa and saw the book of Remembrance for the first time.

Note for our friends from overseas : The book of Remembrance contains the names of all Canadian service members killed in action during the First and Second World Wars , the Korean conflict and all subsequent Peacekeeping missions . More recently were added the names of our comrades killed in the Afghan War. It is a very important document and a page is turned every day so that every soldier that courageously gave his life gets a chance to be publicly remembered . .

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

So our government could not come up with more than $550K? K not M. I thought that the medals would go considerably higher. As a filthy dirty Strat in Calgary, I knew the story. As a collector of medals to Cavalry and Armoured Cdns, I drooled over the sale of the medals. Un-obtainable for a collector like me but knowing the hobby, the law, the Intermediary, the history, the man etc I was sure hoping the Feds would pony up the dough but alas, not to be. Maybe Currie was related to Brad Wall.

Perhaps the medals are better off in the hands of someone who respects them, regardless.

regards
Darrell

[rob love]

Not $550K, but $660K. Even the government of Canada would not have got out of the buyer's premium. Mind you, under the Liberals proposed changes to the small business tax laws, they would have recouped most of that anyway. A private buyer from Ontario would be on the hook for another $85,800 in HST if he was fortunate enough to be living in Ontario. I think I would have to sell just about all my worldly possessions to buy that set.

But what a great set to buy.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Maybe concerned Canadians should start an online petition? Demand your government NOT to grant an export permit...

H.

[rob love]

I won't be signing it. If the government of Canada wanted the VC, then it should have paid for it.

If it can pay a member of Canada's first family of terrorism 10.5 million for things that happened to him under US control, then it can pony up the full market value of the medal group. Ones property is ones property.

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by rob love

If it can pay a member of Canada's first family of terrorism 10.5 million for things that happened to him under US control, then it can pony up the full market value of the medal group.

Now that's the disappointing reality... Very sad situation.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by rob love

If it can pay a member of Canada's first family of terrorism 10.5 million for things that happened to him under US control, then it can pony up the full market value of the medal group. Ones property is ones property.

Well said Rob and I think shows the true feelings of this government towards the military and our heritage.

So if the medal group is allowed to leave the country, then first what would that move say about protecting cultural property and secondly what sort of response would the move draw from Veteran's groups and concerned individuals?

If the medal group is not allowed to leave then what secret deal has been orchestrated between the buyer and Canada - perhaps a 'good-will donation' touted in the media or a 'behind-the-scenes buy-out'? I doubt anyone outside of Canada with the means to purchase a VC medal group would gamble on never getting it; so I feel some sort of deal has already been struck.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Well said Rob and I think shows the true feelings of this government towards the military and our heritage.

So if the medal group is allowed to leave the country, then first what would that move say about protecting cultural property and secondly what sort of response would the move draw from Veteran's groups and concerned individuals?

If the medal group is not allowed to leave then what secret deal has been orchestrated between the buyer and Canada - perhaps a 'good-will donation' touted in the media or a 'behind-the-scenes buy-out'? I doubt anyone outside of Canada with the means to purchase a VC medal group would gamble on never getting it; so I feel some sort of deal has already been struck.

I agree with all you and Rob are saying. I bet there's more that could be said but isn't lest we get too political and banned from the site (not diminishing the correctness of those thoughts regarding the government's treatment of heritage and our military).

That said it would be so typical that the government now wage a legal challenge or some other nonsense move to retain what they now (after the horse has bolted from the barn) are shamed into grudgingly agreeing are significant national treasures. They will spend millions more than the purchase price of the medals in this after the fact moral conversion.

[Ed Storey]

I am interested to see how this all plays out, although public interest may have weaned by the time the legal challenges have all been addressed.

[Ed Storey]

It looks like the post from Hanno was deleted while I wrote this response.

Hanno, inspirational words but there is little anyone can do unless someone wants to go door-to-door to raise the money to keep them in Canada. Keep in mind that the politics and interest in the military/history are very different in Canada from those in NW Europe. Living in Canada we are constantly subjected to a Federal Government willing to give millions of taxpayers dollars away for whatever cause is on top of their agenda. For me anyway it is a case of if the Federal Government feels that Currie's VC Group is of national importance to stick in a museum, then pony up the cash and buy it. At a time when defence spending and procurement is in crisis and the Veterans community has to fight for adequate funding, my tax dollars are being used to pay the wages of the Afghan Army and have paid off a convicted terrorist. Paying lip-service to history and not having an adequate budget on hand to purchase the medals group really comes as no surprise.

It is laughable really, a rich person from outside of Canada legally bought an export controlled medals group by outbidding our government, I am now curious to see how this all plays out.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hello Ed,

Indeed: basically I said that if anyone feels it is not right to leave these medals leave Canada, then make your voice heard rather than shrug one's shoulders and say that nothing can be done to convince the gummint. I am not up to date on current Canadian politics or the state of the Canadian Armed Forces. So on second thoughts I deemed it better to delete my post as I don't want to stir the pot too much.

Hanno