Australia and Lend-Lease

[Mike K]

Interesting

http://abmm.org/australias-wwii-lend-lease-program/

[Mike K]

Some of the stuff in the article needs editing.

"Most people who were living near major military areas in Australia immediately following the Second World War will relate stories of seeing masses of partially stripped aircraft and vehicles waiting for the smelters or the scrap merchants. "

Most people ? Some of the statements are a bit over the top , the author has exaggerated with his own opinions spread all over the article. The article needs to be checked over by others with a more even outlook.

"Perhaps forewarned of the 1949 “Fullbright” agreement, the Australian government held off on the disposal of the bulk of the RAAF and USAAC C47/DC3 and PBY Catalina aircraft"

The PBY's were sold off in situ up at lake boga , they were not "held off" http://www.goodall.com.au/australian.../lakeboga.html

[Lang]

Mike

That article has it "nearly" right.

The Japanese cave airfield and a number of other jeep-in-box style stories are BS.

The lost vehicles supposedly in highly populated Guam are actually out of Alby Mangel's first home movie of the abandoned atomic test island base of Palmyra - Korean era vehicles.

The Catalina and DC-3 rescue from destruction are true (see attached Treaty).

This is the finest and most simple international agreement ever written. Billions of today's value in dollars for the entire WW2 USA/Australia Lend Lease program all accounted for, everybody responsible for their own actions, totally done and dusted within a few months of the end of the war on 1 page. It shows what can be done if politicians and public servants set out with good intentions.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/d...es/1946/6.html

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

The article concerned needs a big injection of truth and big reduction in sensationalism.

Had to dispose of LL equipment? What about all the vehicles used for many years post war - M3A5 Grants, CCKW353 trucks, US6 trucks, jeeps, Staghounds, DUKW, 42WLA Harley Davidsons - the list goes on. Or were they 'held over/disposal delayed' pending a change in policy like the claims he makes for the PBYs and DC3/C47s?

The CDC's three-tier method of disposal was clearly laid down, and applied to both LL equipment no longer required by the Aust armed forces and the RLL equipment returned to the Commonwealth by US Forces for disposal. I'm yet to locate any documentation about the CDC handling the disposal of ex-US military/US sourced materiel that had not been supplied to the Commonwealth, ie ex-US Forces equipment.

I don't see any mention of the Mutual Aid exchanged with Canada, which would seem just as relevant to his article, but I suppose that's his choice as an author.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

Paragraph 8(a) of the treaty says what happened to the American equipment left in Australia. We paid $6,500,000 for it and we now owned it.

In lieu of any specific American equipment sales records on your radar do you suppose that stuff was just sold off (or kept in storage as you indicated for lots of gear) along with the rest of the equipment? eg A sale of 100 jeeps in Townsville may have included 20 American jeeps with no differentiation?

The Australian jeeps would have been recorded and written off on the records which you have access to but the American jeep records could be as simple as a note in the sales report saying " Lot 34 Ford Jeep USA" or even just "Lot 34 Ford Jeep"?

A bit more info from that treaty stated not only would Australia still get all the gear they ordered that was on board ships at sea they would also get all their current back orders fulfilled by American contractors and this would be loaded on to ships by the Americans for Australia - who covered the cost of freight.

I believe this is probably where the big stocks of new equipment, not refurbished, (Studebakers, White Scout Cars? etc) stored at Bandiana, Singleton and other depots came from.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

The CDC disposals reporting I have located thus far is quite specific as to the source of the materiel: Australian army, RAAF and RAN equipment, including items supplied under LL, are listed as such, and RLL equipment returned to the Commonwealth from US Forces is listed separately as the value had to be accounted for against the RLL account. Virtually all vehicles are listed by chassis/engine numbers and military registration number - be that RAN, RAAF, Aust Army, US Army, US Navy, etc.

All I can say is that I've not come across any CDC listings for the disposal of US Forces equipment left in Australia (other than RLL equipment being returned to the Commonwealth) which, if there was so much of it as suggested by the article, you would anticipate some lists would have surfaced.

As for the back-orders, most were simply cancelled. For example, as of 30 June 1945, Australia had about 1,000 jeeps allocated from the monthly production quota in America against orders and awaiting shipping. Most of these were subsequently shipped to Australia, but the back-orders for a further 4,000-odd were simply cancelled.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

I believe that particular cancellation was the result of the war nearing an end and an operational decision that no more were needed, not a part of the after-conflict tidy up.

Far from the Americans being generous or the Australians honoring their LL orders, I have read that the Americans REQUIRED the contracts to be completed post-war to avoid American industry having the rug pulled out from under them as they transferred to peacetime production. The wording in the treaty also seems to indicate the outstanding orders were binding.

There are many records of brand new equipment rolling off the line to be instantly scrapped or added to the vast American foreign aid of the period (not because they were generous but to keep their industries going in the change-over period)

The treaty is very clear that American goods owned by Australia may never be sold in USA solely to protect their industry and vice-versa.

Of course there would have been many orders between Australia and American manufacturers not part of Lend Lease on a commercial basis, and in-house trading such as between GM USA/Canada and GMH, that well could have been cancelled.

Lang

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The article concerned needs a big injection of truth and big reduction in sensationalism.



Mike

I agree . Sadly, people tend to become carried away with the war surplus 'stories' and this article has done its best , unfortunately, and added to the myths.

In this case, I would be relying on the CDC records and not so much on uncle so and so's recollections of his times in the army. Sometimes , the official records are the more reliable source . Paint, well that's another story

[Lang]

Mike

Just had a thought when you mentioned RLL stuff being returned. I presume this stuff was what he Americans did not want and was included in the $6,500,000 payment for all their leftovers. We had "sold" or "traded" it to them as part of the LL/RLL operation and it was technically just more American owned equipment.

Could the American jeeps etc being sold just be classified under RLL returns alongside say the Plymouth staff cars built in South Australia for the Americans.
If that was the case there would be no record of specific "American" sales.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

No, I doubt it, given the fact that the surviving lists of RLL vehicles returned to the Commonwealth for disposal contain only vehicles (cars, trucks, mobile cranes tractors, etc) supplied from Australian resources to the USASOS/USAFIA, not equipment of US origin like jeeps.

Although the Australian government agreed to the disposal of US equipment to assist in the exit of US units from Australia, it was clearly defined as being of a very limited degree and was to be accounted for separately. While an agreement at government level is one thing, as I said previously, I am yet to find any evidence of the CDC actually handling the US stuff through the disposals process, whereas plenty of paperwork survives for RLL returns & disposals.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

There is no denying there was a lot of American stuff left here - $6,500,000 worth - if it does not go on the Australian disposal sales records how was it disposed of.

Did they have large American-only sales in big places like Townsville. Of course we got all the stuff in Australian territories and there is plenty of evidence of Theiss Bros etc bringing that gear back to Australia.

In Mikes advertising thread there is an ad for a massive number of vehicles in Rabaul in the one sale - I would presume many, if not most of these, might be of American origin. This is not just any sale, it is a vast number of vehicles - 1,700. Far beyond one would imagine the Australians had in that area. Were they brought across from Bougainville, but once again, there were probably more American vehicles there than Australian?

I also note there was a Lae sale the week before and one would imagine there would be even more vehicles there than in Rabaul.

Any ideas?

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

I'm not going to hazard a guess at the 'how or when': I'm only relating what I have found - and not found - in the surviving CDC disposal records.

As for the Rabaul CDC auction, a look at the actual catalogue list would answer your question, if a catalogue can be found. But I would not be surprised about that number being left by Australian forces - Army, Navy & Air Force - in the greater Rabaul area, and concentrated there for the purposes of disposal. For example, 1 Aust Corps, in February 1945, listed 6,005 vehicles on charge (they were in the SWPA). I'd have to go hunting to find what the allocation to a Division equipped for jungle operations would be, but 11th Aust Div at Rabaul would have had a sizable number of vehicles on hand at wars end, let alone the RAAF and RAN contingents in the Rabaul area as well.

I've a number of pieces of correspondence relating to the CDC disposal of vehicles in various locations throughout the SW Pacific/New Guinea areas, and again, the jeeps, trucks etc listed are all LL items with Australian registration numbers, ex-Australian military forces, and not US military equipment ex-US forces with US registrations.

Mike

[Lang]

Looks like anything USA just disappeared into thin air. There must be something, somewhere to tell us what happened to them.

Keep looking!

Lang

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lang

Looks like anything USA just disappeared into thin air. There must be something, somewhere to tell us what happened to them.

Keep looking!

Lang

...or deep water!

There are many references of the items dumped at sea at Vanuatu's Million Dollar Point, so named because of the (1945 dollar value) US $1 mill worth of gear dumped there.

Surely not the only dumping ground the US used?

[Lynn Eades]

With out finding any documentation, so this is just hearsay, rumour and opinion, but it is my understanding the Mr Giltrap and Mr G.T. Gillies became quite wealthy (probably were already) by hauling vehicles back from the Pacific islands For resale. How did the NZ built C8AX that was a restoration feature on this forum, some time back, get to Australia? Was it hauled back from the islands by a similar enterprising Australian? Let me know.

[Tony Smith]

The majority of the C8AX's in Aust were purchased in bulk from Post-war NZ auction sales (or was it a tender?) in the Solomons. There may be a couple that have come over from NZ individually since then, but that's the source of the majority.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

How did the NZ built C8AX that was a restoration feature on this forum, some time back, get to Australia? Was it hauled back from the islands by a similar enterprising Australian? Let me know.

Lynn

As Tony wrote, the C8AX vehicles were imported from the Solomons. Apparently the company involved was 'Torokina Spares' , based in Sydney. The final number imported must have been significant because C8AX's are fairly common in NSW . Could have been 400 or more ?

It's been noted that C8AX were seen driving around Sydney during the later stages of WW2 with RN markings ( The old W&T article ) . VMVC member Len Schutt's C8AX was found to have the RN script on the doors, he contacted the RN in the UK archives but no luck. Len's C8AX is a regular Corowa antendee , I followed it back down the Hume and it was speeding along like no other CMP I've ever seen! On the back to track outing, it blew a head gasket and passing semi driver loaded it to Adelaide for free !

I had a C8AX and the NZ built GS body, I sold my example to two young brothers in Perth WA . I've still got the plans I had drawn up up of the GS body . Somebody in NSW actually built a body from my plans. Might have been the restored C8AX that was destroyed by catching on fire .

I had a C8AX article published in Army Motors the US MVPA club magazine years ago.

[Lang]

8. (a) The Government of the United States, in partial consideration of the payments to be made by the Commonwealth of Australia pursuant to section 3 of this Agreement, agrees to transfer property, selected by mutual agreement, located in or outside Australia, heretofore or hereafter declared to the Office of the Foreign Liquidation Commissioner, United States Department of State, as surplus to the requirements of any department or agency of the Government of the United States, of a total value aggregating $6,500,000 computed at prices to be mutually agreed. There shall be included in the property covered by this paragraph

(i) all property so declared as surplus included in sales or agreements to sell heretofore entered into between the two Governments; and

(ii) all such property included in sales or agreements to sell to any firms or individuals in Australia or in Australian territories, heretofore or hereafter made by the Government of the United States, in respect of which import licenses have been or may hereafter be issued by the Commonwealth of Australia;

and the contract value of the property included in such sales or agreements to sell shall be taken into consideration in computing the total value of surplus property transferred hereunder. This Agreement shall govern in any case in which the terms hereof are in conflict with the terms of any of the agreements described in paragraphs (i) and (ii) above.


That amount paid by the Australian Government is getting close to 100 million dollars in today's terms. The written down value of all the surplus US stuff adds up to a massive amount of gear - vehicles probably made up a large proportion.

There must be records somewhere of where it went. Once Australia owned it, certainly not dumped as the Australian Government was scrambling for every penny and newspaper articles have politicians trumpeting after every big disposals sale how much money they are recovering.

Lang

[Lang]

I think I might have found some of the answer. Looks like the Americans had their own Disposals Commissioner running around the islands selling gear to all comers.

A lot of mention of stuff being bought by Australians (Leslie Theiss and his brother were quite clear in their histories that they bought thousands of tons of equipment - earthmoving and vehicles- from the Americans in the islands, not CDC)

Looks like there was a second commercial stream of ex-military equipment flowing into civilian hands in Australia.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...201946&f=false

[Mike K]

Don't know if this is relevant but:

I recall reading something relating to surplus in the SWPA . Sometime in the post war period, the Aust. Govt. was offered the equipment that the US had left behind on Manus Island, Seeadler Harbor. The Aust. Govt. knocked back the offer after the equipment was assessed as being suitable for scrap only.

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

Not me: I'll leave that to others living much closer to the NAA in Canberra to look at those files.

Remote research using Recordsearch throws up lots of nice related file titles to look at, but at $69 each not including GST (and a low research priority for me) far too expensive. A project like this could easily require 100 or 200 file clearances & copying - $6,900 to $13,800, and add 10% if you are in Oz. Over the last seven years I've opened and copied around 160 files on one project alone, and used another 130 on the same project that were already available on line. With NAA costs fast becoming prohibitive for 'off site' research, it is looking cheaper and more pleasurable to fly to Canberra for a few weeks, visit friends and hit the archives with notebook in hand , even from the USA!!

I'm pretty sure Gina would get a shock if she sat down and calculated what the paint project has cost her thus far, but research is our hobby so.......

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

That book was a nice find, and unusual for an American author to choose an image of Aust infantry in the jungle for the front cover.

After having read the pages at the link you provided, I have ordered a copy: looks like a well-researched tome and I would really like to see her endnotes list!

Thanks

Mike