Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Lang]

Earlier in this thread there was some discussion on WW1 colours.

The 1906 US War Department Circular 66 specified the use of Olive Drab for army wagons and indicated that this color could be mixed using 6 pounds White Lead in Linseed Oil, 1 pound Raw Umber pigment, 1 pint Turpentine, and ½ pint Japan Drier. Surviving samples show it to be lighter that World War II Olive Drab. This color remained standard through World War I, and was authorized in the annual editions of the “Manual for Quartermaster Corps, United States Army” through 1917.

None of this sounds colour perfect match material or long lasting.

Without spectrographs in the production phase the WW2 colour search is also like chasing a shadow and any talk of colour can only be about code numbers. There are still possibly tens of thousands of old military vehicles with unblemished paint samples on them (under seats, beneath brackets, inside gloveboxes, unopened parts boxes etc) and we have endless discussions about what the actual colours were. Colour names 100% identified, colour schemes 100% identified (maybe not looking at Gina's post above), colour codes 100% identified, colour furmulas 100% identified - actual colours ???

They were eye matched in vast quantities by different manufacturers with different sources of supply of the same materials but of slightly different chemical properties. Even in black and white photos you can see vehicles are different shades. Some parts were dipped, some were sprayed (at different pressures and solvent mixes) some were brushed. You can get numerous shades using these different methods from the same can of stable modern paint in your shed let alone manufacturers continents apart in different temperatures using different brands in 1942.

Anything applied in workshops or the field post manufacture, forget it as any sort of bench mark.

The search for truth on this thread is really fascinating from an historical point of view and lots of people have worked very hard to provide answers.

Many people on the forum have said it before but it comes down to "There never was a large military fleet with a colour so uniform it would stand up to modern spectrographic matching and the best you can do is to find the colour that appeals to you in the "correct" range"

Unless we all choose to go with one of the many paint sellers who claim their product is "accurate WW2" (but different from the other "accurate WW2" sellers) we will continue to see vehicles at shows in a wide range of shades - exactly as it would have been in WW2.

Lang

[Mrs Vampire]

The issue of eye matching and local purchase has been covered previously ..put simply if it happened at all it was exceptional,
Despite notions that things were complete chaos in 1942 the Army had an effective supply chain and ordinary paint was very hard to get on account of strict rationing...the only paint available to units would be to scale and to approved colours....

There are not so many vehicles with recoverable external paint. I have looked at quite a few and finding parts of vehicles and using complicated recognition methods I have yet to find one with paint that is not one of the official colours. I also note paint under a seat or chassis rail is not indicative of the external camouflage finish it shows the factory finish which varied over time for instance the factories were still painting KGJ in 1944 when the colour was KG3 and most of the spared were the earlier colour...overpainting in Army workshops prior to issue was the rule. There were huge ordnance workshops in all states.

Here is an example and one that will never be sandblasted out of existence .

Btw earlier in the thread there is a link to a Passing out Parade at Parkes NSW showing a remarkabl;e uniformity of colour if a somewhat interesting pattern ,,, as it should be

[Lang]

Gina

I did not mention local purchase but was referring to various manufacturers original paints.

Even today, with multi million dollar computers, multi million production runs and highly advanced long lasting and stable synthetic paints a painter would never just blast a repair straight out of the can, supplied by the manufacturer onto a three day old car that had never been in the sun.

He will always run a test spray and more often than not his computer or eye will require a minor alteration.

Lang

[Mrs Vampire]

I hear what you are saying Lang.

It has been put to me many times , I have never found any evidence to support the theory that manufacture paint varied to any extent in colour.

The method of manufacture ,,,specified weights and measures of pigment such as chromate where those pigments were held to very tight constraints , optical measured comparison with a standard plate and so on left little room for differences.

I also strongly disagree with your contention modern paint manufacturers cant get it right. Spectrography is used to detect copyright infringements routinely these days. Makers of everything from T shirts to I phone cases use very specific colors that are not able to be exactly reproduced without knowing the pigment make up...spectrographs ate sensitive enough to pick iup those differences.

It wasn't as hit and miss as you contend in WWII and its not now so far as my research has revealed

[Lang]

You are probably right Gina about modern paints. Still can't figure out why I pass almost new cars every day, repaired under insurance by top panel shops with the newly sprayed door jumping out from the rest of the body.

Maybe application has as much to do with differences as what is in the tin?

Lang

[Richard Farrant]

Paint manufacturers even today, advise if doing a large job to use paint tins with same batch number to ensure matching.
I agree with Lang, brushing and spraying makes a huge difference in the colour, as does different types of thinners and the amount, also temperature when applied.

cheers Richard

[Mrs Vampire]

this is not an argument I am ever going to win with those committed to a belief of primitive and rough paint manufacture.
The difference in colours of NOS items I have seen can be attributed to country of manufacture and time of manufacture as colors were changed,,,the most common American Olive drab is OD8 there were seven before that.

That paint fades and discolors when exposed to sunlight , hostile environments and oxygen has also been covered previously and accounts for most if not all the differences observed in photographs. Discoloration is especially evident on dead flat paints as we used until the introduction of egg shell KG3 .

I am open to the idea that manufactures may have got it wrong or schemes I have not accepted were in fact used...But I need concrete evidence in the form of documentation or an artifact who's provenance is in no doubt and has been measured scientifically.

When I began my little project all sorts of things were put ...I have chased every one down . What I have now are verifiable and certain.
That's not to say I have everything or that my current position is final...it never will be ,,,but it will always be advanced only with verifiable documentation or evidence from artifacts.

As I indicated earlier I am keen to be shown to be wrong ( that can only improve our understanding ) and look forward to hearing of any documents I have not considered...

[Lang]

Gina

I don't think anyone has mentioned primitive or rough manufacture it is just the colour matching methods of 80 years ago were no where near what they are today and relied greatly on human perception.

Unless every component of the paint comes from the same quarry, factory or refinery (which they didn't) it is not sensible to believe they will be identical with exactly the same formula and will require some form of corrective intervention. Lacking computers and modern spectrographs, the human eye is all that is left.

Just sticking to Army paint.

Back in the 70's we started to get aircraft coming out of the workshop after full rebuilds with their overall olive drab quite plainly different to the other aircraft.

The workshop CO made some investigations and found the paint was coming from a different manufacturer. Still had the same nomenclature and part numbers.

This caused a wider investigation which resulted in "Colour difference is as a result of different manufacturing methods and the new colour is deemed within acceptable variation limits"

A couple of years later the vehicles being repainted at workshops were obviously different to their new colour. Not red versus blue but perceptible to even untrained eyes. Once again, correct part numbers but different manufacturer.

Lang

[Mike K]

Laurie Wrights articles on the Aust. wartime vehicle paint , written by a guy who was there and noted things down, is eye opening . He indicates that the official orders re: painting were ignored to a large degree and it was common to see vehicles in the same unit finished in different theatre colours . If a unit OC was not that fussed about paint then so be it.

http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/oth...siecamlw_1.htm

All this pedantic talk of colours means nil in terms of a tropical environment , mainly because the paint supplied to the DD back then was crap and made to a minimal standard.

[Mike K]

I recall opening parts wrapped in the waxy preservative material back in the 1970's . At the time, Auto Surplus had many WW2 era US vehicle parts, unopened and sealed .

As far as WW2 US olive drab goes , going by the parts I opened up, there was not a standard OD that each manufacturer adhered to, I found at least 4 very different greens on different parts. The trico vacuum wiper motors ( 10 bucks a pair in the sealed box ) and the arms , some were a glossy dark green, the blades a different green again. The US blackout driving inserts from Camberwell , completely sealed in the wax , 50 cents each, again at least 3 very different greens , some light and olivey, some were a green with a slight blueish hue.

I think Lang's thoughts are pretty much on the mark. Turps as a solvent for starters , a can of worms is opened.

I recall rubbing down the 41 slat grill Jeep, must have been 6 coats of army green , each green a different shade .

My father was a automotive spray painter for over 40 years, I used to get him to match the matt OD Blackout inserts , he said it's a nightmare job to do using the modern formula paints. Its all a compromise and we have to accept that .