Australia and Lend-Lease

[Lang]

Mike

That article has it "nearly" right.

The Japanese cave airfield and a number of other jeep-in-box style stories are BS.

The lost vehicles supposedly in highly populated Guam are actually out of Alby Mangel's first home movie of the abandoned atomic test island base of Palmyra - Korean era vehicles.

The Catalina and DC-3 rescue from destruction are true (see attached Treaty).

This is the finest and most simple international agreement ever written. Billions of today's value in dollars for the entire WW2 USA/Australia Lend Lease program all accounted for, everybody responsible for their own actions, totally done and dusted within a few months of the end of the war on 1 page. It shows what can be done if politicians and public servants set out with good intentions.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/d...es/1946/6.html

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

The article concerned needs a big injection of truth and big reduction in sensationalism.

Had to dispose of LL equipment? What about all the vehicles used for many years post war - M3A5 Grants, CCKW353 trucks, US6 trucks, jeeps, Staghounds, DUKW, 42WLA Harley Davidsons - the list goes on. Or were they 'held over/disposal delayed' pending a change in policy like the claims he makes for the PBYs and DC3/C47s?

The CDC's three-tier method of disposal was clearly laid down, and applied to both LL equipment no longer required by the Aust armed forces and the RLL equipment returned to the Commonwealth by US Forces for disposal. I'm yet to locate any documentation about the CDC handling the disposal of ex-US military/US sourced materiel that had not been supplied to the Commonwealth, ie ex-US Forces equipment.

I don't see any mention of the Mutual Aid exchanged with Canada, which would seem just as relevant to his article, but I suppose that's his choice as an author.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

Paragraph 8(a) of the treaty says what happened to the American equipment left in Australia. We paid $6,500,000 for it and we now owned it.

In lieu of any specific American equipment sales records on your radar do you suppose that stuff was just sold off (or kept in storage as you indicated for lots of gear) along with the rest of the equipment? eg A sale of 100 jeeps in Townsville may have included 20 American jeeps with no differentiation?

The Australian jeeps would have been recorded and written off on the records which you have access to but the American jeep records could be as simple as a note in the sales report saying " Lot 34 Ford Jeep USA" or even just "Lot 34 Ford Jeep"?

A bit more info from that treaty stated not only would Australia still get all the gear they ordered that was on board ships at sea they would also get all their current back orders fulfilled by American contractors and this would be loaded on to ships by the Americans for Australia - who covered the cost of freight.

I believe this is probably where the big stocks of new equipment, not refurbished, (Studebakers, White Scout Cars? etc) stored at Bandiana, Singleton and other depots came from.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

The CDC disposals reporting I have located thus far is quite specific as to the source of the materiel: Australian army, RAAF and RAN equipment, including items supplied under LL, are listed as such, and RLL equipment returned to the Commonwealth from US Forces is listed separately as the value had to be accounted for against the RLL account. Virtually all vehicles are listed by chassis/engine numbers and military registration number - be that RAN, RAAF, Aust Army, US Army, US Navy, etc.

All I can say is that I've not come across any CDC listings for the disposal of US Forces equipment left in Australia (other than RLL equipment being returned to the Commonwealth) which, if there was so much of it as suggested by the article, you would anticipate some lists would have surfaced.

As for the back-orders, most were simply cancelled. For example, as of 30 June 1945, Australia had about 1,000 jeeps allocated from the monthly production quota in America against orders and awaiting shipping. Most of these were subsequently shipped to Australia, but the back-orders for a further 4,000-odd were simply cancelled.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

I believe that particular cancellation was the result of the war nearing an end and an operational decision that no more were needed, not a part of the after-conflict tidy up.

Far from the Americans being generous or the Australians honoring their LL orders, I have read that the Americans REQUIRED the contracts to be completed post-war to avoid American industry having the rug pulled out from under them as they transferred to peacetime production. The wording in the treaty also seems to indicate the outstanding orders were binding.

There are many records of brand new equipment rolling off the line to be instantly scrapped or added to the vast American foreign aid of the period (not because they were generous but to keep their industries going in the change-over period)

The treaty is very clear that American goods owned by Australia may never be sold in USA solely to protect their industry and vice-versa.

Of course there would have been many orders between Australia and American manufacturers not part of Lend Lease on a commercial basis, and in-house trading such as between GM USA/Canada and GMH, that well could have been cancelled.

Lang

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The article concerned needs a big injection of truth and big reduction in sensationalism.



Mike

I agree . Sadly, people tend to become carried away with the war surplus 'stories' and this article has done its best , unfortunately, and added to the myths.

In this case, I would be relying on the CDC records and not so much on uncle so and so's recollections of his times in the army. Sometimes , the official records are the more reliable source . Paint, well that's another story

[Lang]

Mike

Just had a thought when you mentioned RLL stuff being returned. I presume this stuff was what he Americans did not want and was included in the $6,500,000 payment for all their leftovers. We had "sold" or "traded" it to them as part of the LL/RLL operation and it was technically just more American owned equipment.

Could the American jeeps etc being sold just be classified under RLL returns alongside say the Plymouth staff cars built in South Australia for the Americans.
If that was the case there would be no record of specific "American" sales.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

No, I doubt it, given the fact that the surviving lists of RLL vehicles returned to the Commonwealth for disposal contain only vehicles (cars, trucks, mobile cranes tractors, etc) supplied from Australian resources to the USASOS/USAFIA, not equipment of US origin like jeeps.

Although the Australian government agreed to the disposal of US equipment to assist in the exit of US units from Australia, it was clearly defined as being of a very limited degree and was to be accounted for separately. While an agreement at government level is one thing, as I said previously, I am yet to find any evidence of the CDC actually handling the US stuff through the disposals process, whereas plenty of paperwork survives for RLL returns & disposals.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

There is no denying there was a lot of American stuff left here - $6,500,000 worth - if it does not go on the Australian disposal sales records how was it disposed of.

Did they have large American-only sales in big places like Townsville. Of course we got all the stuff in Australian territories and there is plenty of evidence of Theiss Bros etc bringing that gear back to Australia.

In Mikes advertising thread there is an ad for a massive number of vehicles in Rabaul in the one sale - I would presume many, if not most of these, might be of American origin. This is not just any sale, it is a vast number of vehicles - 1,700. Far beyond one would imagine the Australians had in that area. Were they brought across from Bougainville, but once again, there were probably more American vehicles there than Australian?

I also note there was a Lae sale the week before and one would imagine there would be even more vehicles there than in Rabaul.

Any ideas?

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Lang,

I'm not going to hazard a guess at the 'how or when': I'm only relating what I have found - and not found - in the surviving CDC disposal records.

As for the Rabaul CDC auction, a look at the actual catalogue list would answer your question, if a catalogue can be found. But I would not be surprised about that number being left by Australian forces - Army, Navy & Air Force - in the greater Rabaul area, and concentrated there for the purposes of disposal. For example, 1 Aust Corps, in February 1945, listed 6,005 vehicles on charge (they were in the SWPA). I'd have to go hunting to find what the allocation to a Division equipped for jungle operations would be, but 11th Aust Div at Rabaul would have had a sizable number of vehicles on hand at wars end, let alone the RAAF and RAN contingents in the Rabaul area as well.

I've a number of pieces of correspondence relating to the CDC disposal of vehicles in various locations throughout the SW Pacific/New Guinea areas, and again, the jeeps, trucks etc listed are all LL items with Australian registration numbers, ex-Australian military forces, and not US military equipment ex-US forces with US registrations.

Mike