Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Lynn Eades]

Mike, Is there not the possibility that they were never painted in the first place?

[Mike Cecil]

Lynn,

I think all vehicles supplied under military contract were finished in the paint finish as specified in the contract, whereas impounded or refugee cargo could be any colour. If you look at post 277, the tag, from a 1940 Chevrolet, is finished in 'Khaki', which I would assume means Khaki Green No.3, rather than BDG24, which was Deep Bronze Green, so the word 'Khaki' would be an inappropriate description, whereas 'Khaki' could very well be the factory's way of indicating a KG3 finish.

Another tuppence worth...

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Sorry Mike C., I was referring to the grills and bumpers of the two GMCs in Mike Ks post.

[Lang]

Looks like the senior officers did not like the army paint scheme. Lots of photos of staff cars (in forward areas, not just Australia) with all their chrome still on.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

If you look at post 277, the tag, from a 1940 Chevrolet, is finished in 'Khaki', which I would assume means Khaki Green No.3

Indeed it does Mike. Army vehicles were finished in Dulux 21-line gas resistant alkyd enamel. Paint code for KG3 was 21-11 but typically not stamped on Chevrolet body plates. Exception seen below.

Other Dulux 21-line finishes include Light Earth 21-24 used for disruptive pattern from mid-1942 including softskin tactical vehicles.

Note B.A.L.M. blurb re sharing of formulae with Nobel in England. This applies also to C.I.L. (Canadian Industries Ltd) who produced the required paint there. Parent company was I.C.I. England.

As we know KG3 was British Army standard colour and Light Earth was RAF standard colour. Having been adopted by Australian Army they were duplicated by DHS in flat oil paint for use in the field. Hence Army instructions specify DHS colours Khaki Green J and Light Earth W. This creates the illusion that THESE are Army standard colours, leading to the assumption they’re used in production. I suspect this may be where Gina is struggling, but it’s all so convoluted I’ve been unable to construct a coherent explanation!

Chevrolet Van 15cwt GS ARN 17048 KG3 Dulux code 2111.jpg

Chevrolet Van 15cwt GS ARN 17048 KG3 Dulux code 2111 body tags.JPG

Dulux 21-line finishes.jpg

Light Earth disruptive.jpg

Light Earth disruptive.jpeg

[Mike K]

Awm 008503 and 021674

[Mike K]

This one is your basic respray job . The background appears to be a cab 12 chevy . It would have helped if they cleaned that jeep before painting it !

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

I have no document or order specifying KG3 DBG24 or The desert yellow prior to the colour plates in the way I have definite orders etc for the introduction of KG3 in 1943.

The references that are trickling in seem to indicate to me that KG3 was used between DBG24 and the colour plates...But I dont have an order that introduces it .

Ie all vehicles shall be repainted with KG3 henceforth. or even DBG wil be discontinued . I would expect that such an order would need to have been given in 1939..1940 at the latest... So far what I have is a general trickle of mentions .
The formula was in a file that was for Helmet paint ...

So I am assuming it was the interim colour .... Sorry if I seem contradictory its a moving feast for me . I also don't have paint specifications to manufacturers of vehicles for any colour...so far I am inferring from photos

What I have got is the definite introduction of the colour plated and a definite introduction of KG3 1943...1939 to 1942 is less definite

[Mrs Vampire]

tony I have still not seen any document that specifies light earth as a replacement for light stone in 1942

It would be a help if one came to light . KGJ and Light Earth were in the original schemes .

and where does this come from ??? " As we know KG3 was British Army standard colour and Light Earth was RAF standard colour. Having been adopted by Australian Army they were duplicated by DHS in flat oil paint for use in the field. Hence Army instructions specify DHS colours Khaki Green J and Light Earth W. This creates the illusion that THESE are Army standard colours, leading to the assumption they’re used in production. I suspect this may be where Gina is struggling, but it’s all so convoluted I’ve been unable to construct a coherent explanation!""

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

tony I have still not seen any document that specifies light earth as a replacement for light stone in 1942

Gina, if you haven’t seen the relevant instruction, it’s because you don’t want to see it! For starters it’s there in Steve Taubert’s paper, right up front in the Camouflage section, of which you were so critical just a few days ago:

“I am also disappointed with Stephens treaties in that he has attempted to recreate the documents from archival sources rather than simply post images of the originals. It leaves one pondering just what has been included and what has been omitted for convenience sake or because of its relevance in the judgement of the author. The lack of attribution of sources in the Biblio or foot notes means it is impossible to go to source documents to verify the information.”

In this case the relevant document is Mech Circ 319 of 28/7/42. I’ve posted an original copy along with Steve’s “attempted” recreation. You be the judge.

By way of further explanation I quote from Steve’s preface:

“As mentioned I have collated the various documents in my possession into a single book, in doing so I have attempted to reproduce the original documents as accurately as possible. By which I mean, errors in layout, punctuation and spelling have not been corrected. These documents, especially those relating to vehicle numbering in Part 2, are as close to the original as could be achieved using a modern computer word processor. It was sometimes extremely difficult to exactly duplicate documents, that was produced in a manual typewriter, where the typist could remove the page and reinsert it to achieve typing at various angles. My reasons for reproducing so many documents are as follows:
a) Every instruction represents a change, no matter how minor; they also show increases and decreases in the military Order of Battle,
b) After having so much difficulty, in obtaining the documents that are still in existence, I wanted to assure myself that they at least would not be lost, and that for the first time they could be viewed in a single book,
c) The Australian public have for years, relied on this type of information being supplied by historians from overseas, which have not always been as accurate as one would hope, and
d) After so many years of misinformation, being the only information, it is the simplest way of dispelling doubts in people’s minds by reproducing the original documents as it appeared at the time.

Mech Circ 319 (Medium).jpg

Mech Circ 319 Steve Taubert - Copy.jpg

[Mrs Vampire]

But that is just reiterating a scheme from 301 as put in Jan 1942....

I don't understand how that is a new scheme ??? It also fits in with Dakins objection to three tone schemes .

Tony I am not trying to be a smart arse or cause trouble I am just seeking out definite stuff that would be a referenced basis for a publication.

There are many documents whose names are out there that I don't have for instance

Military Board instruction 194 and most of the Mechanization circulars. I also don't have the standards for the colours Vehicle grey ect that you quoted on facebook and I don't have any references to them .

I pay for the publication online of all the files I find in the archives and have spent well over a thousand dollars doing that. I have also spent a couple of thousand chasing down colours in the archive and having them spectrographed....
I don't understand your hostility I am doing my best to come up with things that can be referenced...I am sorry if you think I should go on your say so...that's just not how I do things...

I stand by my criticism of Tauberts book, I think it is fair...putting up un traceable recreations of documents is not reliable in my opinion. There are details even in the lay out that are informative. The camouflage schemes he has recreated are from a 1949 pamphlet with colour codes that have no traceable history of implementation as the file from Jan 1943 makes clear .

Putting the Australian coat of arms ect ect on the documents is just fanciful in my opinion. They never looked like that and I think it is misleading to portray them as such .

But for me I am still learning and as I have said previously if anyone has documents that can help I would be glad of them .

I am keen to get all of the relevant mechanical circulars and especially keen to get specifications for the painting of vehicles by manufacturers. I am keen to get the MBI that mandated KG3 I would be grateful for documents that specify The Australian Desert tone for ME export vehicles.

Another document mentioned SM4809 has been impossible for me to find .

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

But that is just reiterating a scheme from 301 as put in Jan 1942....I don't understand how that is a new scheme ???

Gina the operative words are: "This circular supersedes and cancels Mechanization Circulars No.301, 309 as applicable and 311."

The context of MC 319 is Army taking back control of camo policy from DHS (ie. Dakin). The original DHS schemes under MC 301 had proven impractical - too many colours, too many schemes, lousy paint quality in the field, general difficulties with painting in the field, supply of materials etc, and most importantly, Light Stone disruptive found too conspicuous in Australian landscapes. The challenge for Army was to develop a SINGLE, STANDARDIZED scheme, suitable for the widest possible range of landscapes, which could be applied IN PRODUCTION. They decided on Light Earth disruptive, and at the same time they darkened KG3.

Sorry if I came across hostile, not my intention all. You're doing excellent work, just need to get all our ducks in a row. It will take a while, this is a horrendously complex subject. That's why no one has managed to write a book yet!

re Steve Taubert's work - like you I'd prefer to see the original docs for verification, but they're not appropriate for publication (old, tattered, torn, overwritten, faded, illegible, etc). Same considerations will apply to any book on camo, eg. pattern charts cleaned up for presentation, and possibly even coloured. Mike will be able to advise on publishing aspects.

I shall keep feeding you the relevant docs, which thanks to you I've been able to access and organize in the comfort of my living room, while you do all the legwork!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

Another document mentioned SM4809 has been impossible for me to find .

Ask and ye shall receive!

Below find draft copy Jan ’43 and final copy March ’43. As you can see the paint vocab was still evolving. Also find amendment Dec ’43 replacing Medium Green with KG3.

Not surprisingly we find very little evidence of this 3-tone scheme in use. Same goes for the early 3-tone DHS schemes.

SM 4809 Jan 43 draft dated (Medium).jpg

SM 4809 issued 4 March 43 (Medium).jpg

SM 4809 amended 21 Dec 43 KG3 in lieu Vehicle Medium Green.jpg

SM 4809 pattern chart D. Trailers (Medium).jpg

067932 3-tone camo MOOREBANK, NSW. 1944-07-31. Gen Sets at No. 3 Sub Depot, 5 BOD..JPG