A Forgotten Chapter: Holland Under the Third Reich

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Interesting site: A Forgotten Chapter: Holland Under the Third Reich.

Have not read it all yet but here´s what must be an eyeopener for many of you: 75% of all Jews in Holland perished (...) the highest percentage of Jews to die in any Nazi occupied country with the exception of Poland.



H.

Hanno I don't know if you are aware of it or not but the citizens of Apeldoorn burned down their City Hall to prevent the Nazis from getting the names from the tax rolls and singling out the Jews. The Hall was rebuilt after the war and is now a museum.

Thank you for the link Hanno. When I was really young I read the Diary of Anne Frank ... THAT started me on finding every book I could find written by holocaust survivors... I was horrified and I also somehow identified with the survivors ... I don't recall reading anything about experiences from Holland though.

ART ... ( Who loves ya baby? ) That was a really moving bit of history you just pointed out regards the City Hall burning ..... and to those wonderful citizens who did such good!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Art Johnson
Hanno I don't know if you are aware of it or not but the citizens of Apeldoorn burned down their City Hall to prevent the Nazis from getting the names from the tax rolls and singling out the Jews.

Art, thanks for pointing out those wonderful citizens who did such good, as Karmen put it. There are many good stories about the resistance in Holland, but for good measure I think we should not forget there was "The Other Side" as well. These are historical facts, and we have to take them into account. It helps to put the tremendous efforts of people like you in the right perspective: it was most certainly not done for nothing.
Thank you, sir!

Hanno

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
There are many good stories about the resistance in Holland, but for good measure I think we should not forget there was "The Other Side" as well. These are historical facts, and we have to take them into account.

Both/And ... life and people are so much both/and ... complicates simplicity doesn't it? Credit where credit is due, discredit where discredit is due, and when they're both coming in the same package then discern?

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
"The Other Side" as well. These are historical facts, and we have to take them into account.

Hanno and I have discussed this, and with some trepidation but in the interests of history perhaps, we should recognise the other side in that 22,000 Dutch nationals joined the SS. In a dangerous extrapolation therefore one could assume that the friends and family of these people were supportive and sympathetic, this would make a fairly large number.

Also, and it needs research into the really dry historical accounts, that some of the German occupied countries at the start of WWII were already well into ethnic/religious cleansing without the help of Mr. Schickelgruber; in fact he may well have got the idea from these places.

The most forceful anti-semitic writer was the Henry Ford writing in his Dearborn News, so much so that Mr Schickelgruber had the articles gathered as a compendium and were required reading for senior officers.

Not to forget either that "Holocaust" is not a new idea, we thought it up and started it off in medieval times.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
When I was really young I read the Diary of Anne Frank ... THAT started me on finding every book I could find written by holocaust survivors... I was horrified and I also somehow identified with the survivors ... I don't recall reading anything about experiences from Holland though.

Anne Frank was on the shortlist of a "Greatest Dutchmen" election held last year. But it was found out she never had the Dutch nationality, being one of the approx. 22,000 jewish refugees from Germany. There was talk in parliament of giving her the Dutch nationality posthumously...

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
Hanno and I have discussed this, and with some trepidation but in the interests of history perhaps, we should recognise the other side in that 22,000 Dutch nationals joined the SS. In a dangerous extrapolation therefore one could assume that the friends and family of these people were supportive and sympathetic, this would make a fairly large number.

The National Socialist Movement (NSB) had about 100,000 members during WW2. I have no details about the political conviction of those Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers, but one expects a large portion of them would come from NSB families.

H.

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Anne Frank . . . . . . . . .
There was talk in parliament of giving her the Dutch nationality posthumously...

That, is the most sensible and respectful thing I have heard in a very long time.

The Anne Frank actor. . . . . . . .does the closing piece in our "Overlord 60" DVD, very appropriate and very good it is too.

(Now, reminded about this OL 60 DVD, I wouldn't say starring role, but whilst Mr Ball (quote) has a small piece in this production, so does my good friend Andreas [Kettenkradfixennführer] [sometimes found around these parts], and your humble scribe too. . . . . . . . !)

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
That, is the most sensible and respectful thing I have heard in a very long time.

In a sense, yes, but then what about those other 22,000 jewish refugees from Germany of which a very large part was deported and murdered like Anne?

It turned out the law does not know a loophole to give the Dutch nationality posthumously.

H.

[Bill Murray]

Even though this thread is a little bit off the subject of our normal discussions, I hope it stays open.

I have no agenda to put forward, I have no great pronouncements to make but I do have some personal opinions I might like to share about "Man's Inhumanity to Man" and some observations about my various experiences living "here and there" around this very complicated earth that we inhabit.

As Karmen knows, Pat and I may be in for another round of potentially diffficult family health problems, on Pat's side of the family this time. As such, I may be in and out a bit but I would like to stay with the thread if I can.

And...I do not intend to stiir the pot so to say, I just have some thoughts on the subject.

Pat says dinner is on the table so I have to go. Keep the thread open if yoy can.
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
Not to forget either that "Holocaust" is not a new idea, we thought it up and started it off in medieval times.

Well, the last acknowledged bout of it seems to be totally forgotten by today's youth. Here's hoping Prince Harry isn't representative of his generation

H.

[Bill Murray]

Morning Hanno:

I still need to get to my "weekend" to dig up some books I read earlier to do my post as indicated earlier but as far as Harry is concerned, I think he is one of the more unfortunate examples of the European Royalty "Gene Pool" problem that has been around for centuries. I realize that "commoner's blood" is now mixed in as regards the UK and some other countries as well but it always seems you get a Gene Pooler every once in a while.
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I think he is one of the more unfortunate examples of the European Royalty "Gene Pool" problem that has been around for centuries.

Morning Bill,

If gene pooling would have been the cause for Harry's mistake, I'm sure his counterparts in Holland would have done the same a long time ago
I'd say Eaton's curriculum needs to be scrutinised. Good thing to hear his father is taking actions to brush up Harry's sense of history.

H.

Originally posted by FV623
That, is the most sensible and respectful thing I have heard in a very long time.

The Anne Frank actor. . . . . . . .does the closing piece in our "Overlord 60" DVD, very appropriate and very good it is too.

Hello my dear fine friend Master R., it's ALWAYS very nice to see your posts ... I learn much, if not facts, than how to think a bit wiser

ANNE FRANK ... yes, very appropriate and I'm glad "she" had her place in this DVD, represented by an actress speaking "as her" ... good.

PW/VD Karmen

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Well, the last acknowledged bout of it seems to be totally forgotten by today's youth. Here's hoping Prince Harry isn't representative of his generation

Hi Master Tall Hanno,

Scarey thing about positions of power and influence is that Harry (and others in those positions) could, and often do, become catalysts (as role models) for trends ... or yes, public outrage, or both. Harry, I suspect, is influencing much of his generation ... as much of his generation is influencing him?

20 is very young, but am very surprized by young Harry's judgement, considering I can't comprehend that he wouldn't have had the history and signifigance drummed into his Royal Little Grey Cells throughout his life, starting with servings of it along with his morning porridge ... a daily diet.

Royal blood or commoner, age 20 can inspire bad judgements for wrong reasons ... I wonder what was really influencing him?

I would like to hear "Anne Frank" reply to his behavior. I wonder what she would say to him?

Karmen

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I have no agenda to put forward, I have no great pronouncements to make but I do have some personal opinions I might like to share about "Man's Inhumanity to Man" and some observations about my various experiences living "here and there" around this very complicated earth that we inhabit.

Good morning Master Buddy-Bill,

I look forward to hearing all you have to say. This really is an informative thread about the Dutch involvements and influences at that time.... and other things fit in here too.

Regards family stuff ... I'm sure family stuff will draw you a lot for some time. Wish that it were for joyful welcoming rather than expected painful goodbyes for your family.

Karmen

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Have not read it all yet but here´s what must be an eyeopener for many of you: 75% of all Jews in Holland perished (...) the highest percentage of Jews to die in any Nazi occupied country with the exception of Poland.

God .... I STILL can't believe those numbers ... Horrendous.

Saddened Karmen

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Well, the last acknowledged bout of it seems to be totally forgotten by today's youth. Here's hoping Prince Harry isn't representative of his generation

Hi Hanno,Thr one thing I'm pleased about is that Jimmy Shipton had a small part in feeding your people.He used to like telling us about tossing chocolate bars from the CMP to children,every time they came across them.Before going out of camp,they'd load boxes of them in the cab .He loved children.He just did his job,and went about it.But,after May'45 they were called upon to go to a concentration camp just inside Germany.I can't recall the name of it.But THIS experience haunted him to his dying days.One troubling item he mentioned was seeing lampshades made human skin,which he never forgot.So I think someone shud educate the young prince form England very quickly.

[Bill Murray]

Evening all:

Well, I will take a quick swing at it anyway even if short.

Like many of my generation, as a younger person I was both horrified and, yes, morbidly fascinated by this abberation called the holocaust. It was beyond comprehension but it happened.

The subject was, strangely enough, not terribly well discussed in the US when I was growing up but my early start in research on military vehicles obviously led me to the knowledge of the many books of the time on the subject. I read a few of the dry historical type books which were more statistics than any sort of discussion about the victims or the perpetrators.

So, my interest declined and it remained a sort of unused bookmark in my mind. It was there but not something I thought about.

The film and book "Schindler's List" awakened me with a hell of a start. Here were written about and later acted out in a film the actions of presumably real people who did things I could understand but not accept. That too passed over time (the film is some years old now).

Then, just a few months ago I picked up several books on sale about the war from the German point of view. Books written in German, published in Germany and later translated into English.

One of them had a big impact on me and relates perhaps to the situation in Holland. The book is entitled "The Good Old Days" and the title is taken from the private photo alblum of the commandant of Treblinka concentration camp Kurt Franz.

The book is not particularly well written and is actually a compendium of "letters to home from the front", private diaries and excerpts from trial testimony by defendants involved in slaughtering innocent civilians, Jews and otherwise.

What struck me the hardest was that in Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and elsewhere once the local population or parts of the population came under German control, they did not wait for the Germans to organize the killing off of Jews or gypsies or homosexuals or commissars, they got on with it on their own right away. And these were not hoodlums it seems but fairly ordinary people who apparently felt they could right the wrongs of decades or maybe centuries by just killing off those they held responsible, men, women and children with no compuction whatsoever. In fact, many of the German writers expressed disgust at these actions and indicated that they refused to take part in them and were not punished by the German authorities if they did not participate. It was a blood lust sort of thing that the perpetrators seemed to genuinley enjoy.

I will quote here part of the Foreword to this book written by Hugh Trevor-Roper who is a very astute writer in my opinion.

"This is a horrible book to read, and yet one that should be read-not in order to revive old enmities (after all it has been compiled by Germans and published in Germany) but in order that we do not forget the most somber lesson of the Second World War: the fragility of civilization, the ease and speed with which, in certain circumstances, barbarism can break through that thin crust and even, if backed by power and sanctified by doctrine, be accepted as the norm".

To me that puts it rather well and is something that is always in the back of my mind. In my own country, we harbour both racial and religious enmities, maybe hatreds, that are masked by our considering ourselves a "civilized" nation.

Please don't take my writings out of context, I am not a rabid or radical individual, merely a thinking one. But....if you would read what appears on the internet message boards in this country and on the editorial/opinion pages of common news media who are against social welfare, illegal immigration, homosexuals, etc. etc. it would scare you if at some point in time our government here would fall to a party or group similar to the National Socialists in Germany in the 1930s I truly fear that our own veneer of civilization could crumble just as it did in Europe just some 60 odd years ago.

To finish this one off for me, I can of course get my fill of genocide most any day on CNN but let me tell you I have seen this type of activity not that many years ago when living in Peru. Not seen it literally mind you but knew it took place and the details etc. In that country, if you were of the ruling class, you could and often did shoot a peasant or native indian for some real or fictitious infraction such as looking at your daughter the wrong way or perhaps stealing a piece of fruit from the orchard, wrecking a piece of equipment. This was done with no fear of any questions or actions from the authorities. If, and this did happen very often,
you struck a pedestrian with your vehicle, you never stopped and nothing was ever done.

I hope with all my being we will never fall into that chaos again but what I see in Iraq, even on the part of my countrymen, in the tsunami area, almost everywhere in the world, I can see that we are vulnerable to reverting to the concept of "Man's inhumanity to man" as an acceptable type of behavior.

Now I spoiled everyone's Friday evening and I apologize for that but otherwise I would have had to write this on Sunday, even worse.

Moderators, feel free to delete this if I overstepped the bounds.
Bill

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Evening all:

To me that puts it rather well and is something that is always in the back of my mind. In my own country, we harbour both racial and religious enmities, maybe hatreds, that are masked by our considering ourselves a "civilized" nation.

Please don't take my writings out of context, I am not a rabid or radical individual, merely a thinking one.

Now I spoiled everyone's Friday evening and I apologize for that but otherwise I would have had to write this on Sunday, even worse.
Bill

Hi Bill ... you didn't "spoil" MY Friday night with your honest thoughts on things. Your words reflect thoughts that run deep through my mind EVERY DAY about how things in the world are coming down ... and projecting into the future is a scarey thing some days if natural progression in certain corners, or ways, continues.

But still ... my "faith in humanity" if thats what to call it, comes from people like yourself, and my own heart, that cares about our world and humanity ... there are enough of us who care ... we naturally resist and rebel against injustice and inhumanity ...

You've NO idea what this little community has done for me and in restoring my faith in people... and life again. Thats pretty dammed serious, but hell Bill, it's the truth. Many people like yourselves in here ... have impacted me in the most positive ways.

And hey ... that's a GOOD thing!

Meanwhile ... yeah ... I'm with you on much of what you've said.

Karmen

By the way ... I have a real problem with "racism" ... my youngest daughter is mixed race .... African roots ... mix that in with my own Heinz 57 genes, and hey ... the United Nations really exists (almost) in my daughter... so to be racist is to reject and condemn myself ... or worse ... my beloved daughters!

MA sends

[Bill Murray]

Karmen:

Interesting point you make.

I grew up in the States, the most racist of the advanced countries that I was/am aware of (we are not talking about South Africa or whatever here). I moved to Sweden at age 34 and found that mixed race marriages, particularly white/black, were a non issue.
Travelled, as I have recounted, and found that in the UK, Scandinavia as a whole and France for example it was the same.

I don't knowthat much about the central and west of Canada, but when I lived in Toronto, it was the same, there was no issue with mixed race marriages whatsoever that I could find.

In Western South America, mixed race "liasons" are an accepted fact of life but not necessarily an accepted fact of the social fabric. A mixed race child is a "bastard" even if they may succeed based on the father's or mother's white or "hispanic" connections.

I have little experience of Eastern South America but I do believe that there is more tolerance for the issue from both mixed marriages and "liasons" than in Western South America as there were slaves imported from Africa to the eastern parts of South America and generally speaking not to the western parts.

Again, please do not take my musings out of context. I have the highest confidence that the current crop of civilized countries, if that is not an oxymoron, would not fall into the genocide trap again. But, as a student of history, even an amateur, I can see that it could happen.

Now, go fix GWB a glass of wine or a beer or some vodka. We are probably already giving him a headache.
Cheers
Bill

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Bill, you did NOT overstep on this, don't worry about it. We here exist BECAUSE of the excesses in human behaviour... none of our forefathers would have had to do what they did without that. It's the human dichotomy... the Best and the Worst will always be in conflict. The forces of Light and Darkness. Good and Evil. The contrast directs our evolution.

I have no complaint with reasonable comments on this subject.

Cheers to you, sir.

G.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Rest assured the Pixie Witch is serving SUNRAY accordingly...

I hosted Karmen's daughter here over Christmas and she was one of the most delightful individuals I've ever met. She epitomizes all that is great about our society... not only a wonderful blend of races but also social attitudes and perspectives. She represents the Canada which her and the others of her generation shall inherit, and I welcome them all (ok, no Liberals! ).

While my own interest is in our [traditional] British heritage (of course being half Scots and half English has nothing to to with this ), I recognize that all things must and should evolve, and this is the way it should be, everywhere. My only concern is that if our society ever had to mobilize itself again against the kind of threat our fathers faced, I'm not sure they'd have the drive or discipline. I blame this not on the homogenized aspect of our peoples but rather on the mediocrity of successive governments.

[Bill Murray]

Evening Sunray:

Firstly, I definitely do not wish to hijack Hanno's thread. The story of what happened to the Jewish people in Holland and even the action of some of the Dutch population is an important story and I hope it is pursued as an event in history that we should all be aware of and learn something from.

However, you too bring up some important points that may need to be remembered as well. We humans have been slaughtering each other since time began it would seem and we continue to do so to this very day. That really saddens me that all of these centuries of development of social systems and political systems such as one or another form of democracy has not eradicated that kind of activity.

As you point out as well, were it not for this fact there would be no field of military history for us to explore and no reason for the MLU Forum to exist. Ponder that for a moment.

Perhaps your best point, and I will twist it a bit, is that as societies in the so called Western World move more to what might be defined as a "civilized" approach to solving problems and living together that puts us at ever more risk with respect to defending ourselves against those societies that have for whatever reason chosen to remain mired in the middle ages.

To be sure, we Western civilizations have our anomolies, Hitler being the worst example. I suppose the Balkans may not qualify yet as being in the civilized Western camp but if so, they and their recent "ethnic cleansings" would be an anomoly as well.

Your sub point about the lack of strong leadership in our relatively newly "civilized" Western countries is a bit of a two edged sword, isn't it. My current President is exhibiting rather stark and clear leadership against what he percieves are my countrie's enemies and the rest of the world doesn't know what to make of that kind of leadership. Personally, I am not quite sure I know what he is up to either but Bush sure as Hell has no misgivings about what he is doing. He sees a problem and he is going to fix it no matter what the rest of the world thinks and to an extent, what a lot of his own constituents think about it.

What is it then that we really want? A strong leader/leaders?
Of course, but God forbid they should actually do something pro-active would seem to be the international concensus.
Without going too far off the deep end, I would have rather Bush picked from my own personal list of countries that need a good hiding than the one he did. I also fault him completely and totally for listening to his Cabinet and their Number Twos and Number Threes who whispered in his ear that we can do Iraq on the cheap and with little planning for what happened after the "War" but that is another story.

So, my friend, we are sort of hoisted on our own petard, aren't we. We don't want any more Hitlers, but they are out there, we want strong leadership but don't want any combat if we can avoid it and as all this goes on we have one or another type of war going on all over the bloody planet.

Hell of a quandry, isn't it.

Maybe we need to start a new thread. "When Armageddon".
Bill

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

You've said a lot worth answering in detail, and I thank you for it. Karmen and I just got home from an overnight at Jon & Betty Skagfeld's, so my brains are a bit scrambled... but as I've known Jon for 25 years (we used to jump out of perfectly sound aeroplanes together), it was a good time... even Karmen has learned to tolerate and even understand us old army blokes and our bad habits...

I will absorb your comments and reply accordingly a bit later, old son. A glass of rye for this boy right now...

[Bill Murray]

Looking forward to your input with interest. Enjoy your glass of rye.
Sometimes, In Vino Veritas actually works although in my case I get muddled from time to time.

Putting my Miss Pat on the aeroplane tomorrow for her family situation in Arizona so I will probably spend rather a bit more time here for the next two weeks or so.

Most of the kids and grandkids are here for dinner so must go for now.
Bill

[Norm Cromie (RIP)]

Hanno: When you deal in numbers like 60 million deaths that WW2 created how can you not believe that we are governed by a demension beyond our comprehension. We are like ants in a fast flowing river of evolution that has no beginning and no end. It is impossible to put a face on good and evil and the reason why. In my humble opinion we as individuals can't and never will be able to control the forces of the universe that dictate the strongest will prevail. This is the destiny that all matter in the Universe must accept.
Norm.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Hi Hanno,Thr one thing I'm pleased about is that Jimmy Shipton had a small part in feeding your people.He used to like telling us about tossing chocolate bars from the CMP to children,every time they came across them.Before going out of camp,they'd load boxes of them in the cab .He loved children.

Garry, great to hear that - you never know he could even have tossed a chocolate bar in the hands of my mother or one of her brothers!?!
I thank him for doing his job - and then some

Hanno