Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Tony Wheeler]

So Mike, how would you explain these carriers freshly painted in 2-tone scheme November 43 in NSW...?

NSW Railways Chullora workshops showing machine gun carriers in for rectification on 23 November.jpg

[Lang]

Tony

Not that I know anything about the paint details but the photo says "in for rectification". This to my mind means they are not new and could well be unissued stocks, built long ago, back to the factory for latest modifications before being issued for the first time.

I have absolutely no evidence but from the photo description, old stock is of equal weight to newly painted. Easy to read into anything what suits your argument while the bloke in disagreement reads the opposite from the same evidence.

Keep it going!

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lang

This to my mind means they are not new and could well be unissued stocks, built long ago, back to the factory for latest modifications before being issued for the first time.

Good point Lang, I think you're probably right. So the question is, what colours are we seeing here?

[Tony Wheeler]

Mike I'll take you up on those beers if I ever get to Washington, I hear they've got some great brewpubs over there!

[Tony Wheeler]

I’ve done some digging in my photo files and the plot thickens with these Chullora carriers! Following series of photos posted by Cam Finlay on Facebook last year show brand new carriers in field parade in single colour KG3 circa early-mid 42 (judging by vehicle types present) followed by what appear to be camo field trials in mid-42 (wet, boggy, men in greatcoats) followed by carriers in 2-tone camo seen at Workshops in late ’42 (bright, sunny, men in shirts) followed by Sydney street parade showing carriers in identical 2-tone pattern to those pictured in Chullora Workshops photo dated 23 November 1943. I’ve also dug up AWM photos of these carriers in Sydney parade which date the event to 12 December 42.

I therefore believe the NSW Railways archive photo has the year wrong (not uncommon I find) and the “rectification” carried out was disruptive painting in Young’s scheme. Except for some reason the AT and Mortar carriers, on which the earlier pattern is seen and the colours are much closer in tone, looking very much like KG3 / Light Earth to me. Perhaps this was a matter of timing - recall Young ordered 8000 gallons of paint on July 8 but his MC319 Variation was approved in October and was adopted by 2 Aust Army around that time (G1862 dated 8 November) meaning these carriers had to wait until November to receive disruptive camo. Perhaps the AT and Mortar carriers were deemed more urgent and received the currently approved colours at the time.

I note that 8000 gallons will cover 8000 x 15cwt vehicles or 4000 x 3-ton vehicles, according to standard instructions, and that’s in the field with 4” brush, not the miserly thin spraycoat applied in production, which might be expected to double that coverage. Whatever the case it seems clear Young was dealing in production quantities, and he was certainly keen to promote his scheme.

Cam Finlay FB Dec 2016 NSW field camo trials (1).jpg

Cam Finlay FB Dec 2016 NSW field camo trials (2) (Large).jpg

Cam Finlay FB Dec 2016 Chullora Workshops November 42.jpg

Cam Finlay FB Dec 2016 Sydney parade 12-12-42 a.jpg

Sydney 12 Dec 42 parade, carriers.jpg

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Mike I'll take you up on those beers if I ever get to Washington, I hear they've got some great brewpubs over there!

You'll still have a way to go to find Mike if you go to Washington!

[Mike Cecil]

Or a 'gross overshoot' Keith, depending upon which way around the globe Tony travels!!

Mike

[Lang]

Tony and Mike

The effort you blokes are putting in is great.

In your latest collection of carrier photos I can see 5 different patterns - 6 if you count the two different patterns on the same vehicles, presumably from the same unit, in the last photo - (and the actual colours seem to be in doubt with the experts as well).

The field photos look like an exercise - Puckapunyal? Carriers running through a prelaid corduroy bog hole with a bunch of "observers" looks like a visit from the boss and his staff or a PR shoot. What makes you think it was a camo field trial?

I am really interested in what actually happened and am hard pushed trying to follow the changes in the patterns. The dates, numbers and various orders and instructions went past me long ago and I will leave that to you!

Gina's RAAF file is a great read (there would have been similar Army files). Unfortunately many researchers take correspondence on these files at face value and use them to back an argument but unless you have worked in a Headquarters you can not read between the lines.

Without that background most people do not understand the relationship between various ranks and particularly jobs. You see this a lot on MLU. It is not a straight rank line and much more collegiate than outsiders think. I spent 15 years in the Army and never once had a senior officer say to me like in the movies "And that's an order!"

Armies are made up of people with opinions, prejudices and various abilities. Pieces of paper may be guidelines of intent but nearly all final results are achieved by people talking to each other of which there is little record.

Not all correspondence carries the same weight. A researcher may not realise a letter from a Captain may have far more significance than one signed by a General. There is often a story between the lines. There are contests between personalities, many letters are just going through the motions with little intent to proceed further and whole pictures can be built up from a few words in letters weeks apart.

As mentioned before, it is easy to read into things but once you start saying the date in the photo is wrong - you may well be right - but without real evidence you may as well say any annoying contradiction is wrong and offer the cleansed evidence as perfect proof.

All the research on dates, numbers, colours and instructions in the world is not going to overcome the fact that at no time did the entire Australian forces vehicle fleet actually carry a standardised colour scheme. There were so many changes that the factory colours may likely be tracked but the new schemes may have been retrofinished on very small numbers of issued vehicles or large numbers according to the period but certainly not all.

There appears to be some idea that there were huge groups of vehicles available for repaint jobs. That may be true for transport companies, artillery and armoured units but half the army vehicles were spread throughout hundreds of smaller units ranging from headquarters vehicles to Infantry battalions to many 1-3 vehicle operators.

Getting all those random vehicles into somewhere to repaint them was impossible. Most could not afford to lose their vehicles because they had no back up and the Chaplain did not know which end of a paint brush to hold when they decided not to bring him in but sent him a can of paint and a drawing for his single vehicle.

Trying to track paint dates from photos in the field (not factory lines) is a pretty hard ask as I would hazard a guess that the further away from Victoria Barracks the units were, the less likely they would be to have brought their vehicles in for their weekly repaint.

I think the whole target of this exercise should be to find what were the actual colours - the mystery colour chip. Trying to put written instructions for patterns and colours against field photos, neatly into date boxes is impossible. You could say a scheme could not be before a date but certainly not after.

You have a big job in front of you.

PS I just had someone say they had the full WW2 period paint chip books from both the Ford and GMH factories. Should he just throw them out?

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

You'll still have a way to go to find Mike if you go to Washington!

Keith I’m talking about Washington State in the Pacific Northwest. It’s a renowned hop growing region for the craft brewing industry, areas like Yakima Valley which have spawned a thriving brewpub scene. Seattle quite famous for brewpubs, I figure there’d be something in Colbert too…?

[Lang]

Mike

I suspect a 75 year old can of paint, even if perfectly sealed, may have altered its colour like a bottle of vintage wine. Particularly if it contained any organic matter such as linseed oil. Minute ongoing chemical reaction or interaction with the surface of the can or cork seal may also play their part.

There must be dry parts that have been sealed from light and moisture out there somewhere. Anything tropical wrapped will have been changed from wax or grease contact. Many electrical parts were wrapped in newspaper or plain brown paper before being boxed and sealed. These are unlikely to reflect changes to vehicle colours but might give the prevailing base colour at the time of manufacture.

All the research the boys (and girls) are doing might eventually be able to name every colour on every stripe on every vehicle in every photo but it is of no practical use unless a real colour swatch on either hermeticaly sealed NOS equipment or an official/factory/paint manufacturer colour sample is found.

We have many restored vehicles painted from colours found under seats, in gloveboxes etc and there can be no question they will be close but the whole academic exercise remains somewhat hollow until physical proof from the period equals the rigorous investigation being done on the paperwork.

As you said some time back, Oh for a chip!

Lang