Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lang

In your latest collection of carrier photos I can see 5 different patterns

Lang the pattern of interest here is the Chullora Workshops pattern which appears again in the parade. The only carriers not to receive this pattern are the AT and Mortars carriers as mentioned.

027536 Sydney 12 Dec 42 carriers parade pattern.jpg

Originally Posted by Lang

and the actual colours seem to be in doubt with the experts as well

I feel sure the disruptive colour is Young’s Vehicle Light Grey as it appears much lighter than the disruptive colour on the AT and Mortar carriers, which we could reasonably assume is Light Earth. Also of course we know that Vehicle Light Grey was the authorized colour at the time and paint stocks were ordered several months earlier. There’s really no reason to think it’s NOT Vehicle Light Grey. The burden of proof here is upon those would claim it to be Light Earth, in contravention of official instructions.

However I’m not so sure about the basic colour, which doesn’t look dark enough to be Young’s Dark Green 3 (ie. Dark Green M with 1/8 Night Black U). I suspect it may be KG3 as the carriers were already painted in KG3, so they may have just freshened it up before applying disruptive coat. This may have been fairly common with repaints, as opposed to new vehicles where the correct basic colour could be applied in production, ie. Vehicle Dark Green which was authorized soon afterwards. Such practice would lead to 3 different schemes under MC319 and Variations, with Vehicle Dark Green / Vehicle Light Grey becoming the de facto standard in 1943, as a result of 3-tone scheme under SM4809 being so impractical to implement.

2-tone evolution 1942-43.jpeg

Originally Posted by Lang

The field photos look like an exercise - Puckapunyal?

Many reasons for believing this is NSW including reappearance of AT carrier in Sydney parade, with gun shield displaying identical pattern repainted Light Earth (presumed colour). Also the photos were posted together by Cam Finlay (who may be able to shed light on their origins).

Originally Posted by Lang

What makes you think it was a camo field trial?

Because we’re seeing unusual camo schemes freshly painted on one or two vehicles only, plus various forms of makeshift camo on display (netting, foliage, canvas sheet) and even a disruptively painted helmet in matching colours! Plus the very fact these professional quality photos were taken in the first place indicates the need for accurate visual record.

I find these images highly reminiscent of photos taken during camo trials at Puckapunyal during October 41 but I’m quite sure they’re NSW trials in mid-42 evaluating new camo schemes after the early schemes proved unsuitable. In fact I wouldn’t mind betting we’re seeing Young himself with the G.O.C. and could that be Dakin lurking in the long grass…? How’s that for an overactive imagination!

Cam Finlay FB Dec 2016.jpg

Originally Posted by Lang

once you start saying the date in the photo is wrong - you may well be right - but without real evidence you may as well say any annoying contradiction is wrong

Yes I’m extremely uncomfortable about having to do this, as it really damages one’s credibility. However I did present incontrovertible evidence first, namely OFFICIAL AWM photos of identical carriers in Dec ’42 parade, and my wording in conclusion was carefully chosen:

“I therefore believe the NSW Railways archive photo has the year wrong”

Note that the date was always in question, which is why I posted the photo in the first place, and rudely challenged Mike to explain it! Apologies Mike!

Note also that we no longer need the Chullora photo, because we have evidence of carriers in the field in KG3, and subsequently on parade December 42 sporting freshly painted disruptive camo. It’s of no consequence WHERE the work was done, only WHEN it was done.

Originally Posted by Lang

I think the whole target of this exercise should be to find what were the actual colours - the mystery colour chip.

Yes, that’s precisely what I’m trying to do with Vehicle Light Grey. The first step is to establish its existence, which can only be ascertained from documents. The second step is to establish its usage, which can only be ascertained from photographs. The third step is to match the colour, which can only be done from artifacts. That’s why I suggested No.6 gun tractors as likely candidates for this colour.

Originally Posted by Lang

Trying to put written instructions for patterns and colours against field photos, neatly into date boxes is impossible.

Nevertheless that’s essentially what’s been done with MC301 and MC319 already, and we have ample photographic evidence of these schemes confirming the general timeline. The next instruction is SM4809, which cancelled MC319 in March 43, but we find no photographic evidence until mid-44, on a couple of semi-trailers and some genset trailers at 5 BOD. Meanwhile during 43 we continue to see MC319 pattern freshly painted, in colours of much higher contrast than KG3 / Light Earth. PLEASE EXPLAIN!