Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Note the way the camouflage paints on the Matador at MEE Monegeeta vary with the light intensity - the disruptive colour across the front is much 'whiter' than the sides, yet it is the same colour (whatever that may be).

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here Mike. I mean, it seems like a statement of the obvious to me. Objects vary in appearance according to the light intensity falling upon them. Like, the dark side of the moon, and the light side of the moon. You wouldn’t compare objects in bright daylight to objects in the shade. You can only compare objects in the same light. Which is to say, the same plane of light. I mean, that’s obvious, isn’t it? In practice that means flat panels with disruptive pattern across them, so the adjacent colours can be compared under the same lighting conditions. Hence in the Matador example you’d probably choose the driver’s door, because the frontal area is way overexposed. That is, the film has been pushed beyond its ability to register tones, it’s just plain white.

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

This simply reinforces what has been said previously in this thread: that trying to interpret camouflage colours from a monochrome image is just about impossible. There are too many variables in terms of light/shade and how the image was processed.

I think we may be talking at cross purposes here. We’re not trying to identify colours in isolation, based on visual appearance only, we’re trying to identify the camo scheme, from a limited number of possibilities, which then tells us the camo colours. We have a lot of information about camo schemes, including date of approval, prescribed patterns, which we bring to bear on the problem. This gets much simpler after 42, because there are so few colours to choose from. Eventually in 44 the problem solves itself, because there are only 3 vehicle paints scheduled, and a 3-tone camo scheme.

Armed with this kind of information we can start to make fine distinctions, like the two semi-trailers pictured. Notice how the scheme as originally intended displays even separation of Light Tone / Medium Tone / Dark Tone, but with KG3 substituted it becomes virtually 2-tone scheme, because KG3 and Vehicle Dark Green are much closer in tone. Indeed, dare I say it, “These colours are useless for disruption as they are much too close in tone and merge at a very short distance.”


LHQ 222895.jpg

SM4809 3-tone scheme pre & post LHQ 222895.jpg

7-ton semi trailer detail pre & post LHQ 222895.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

KG3 and Vehicle Dark Green are much closer in tone.

This is something we can view in real life. Pics below show 1949 KG3 paint chip confirmed against 42 KG3 paintwork, which as you can see varies so much in daylight as to generate 3-tone scheme from the one colour! Notice how the 49 paint chip follows it faithfully, which may not be possible with modern pigments.

NOS 1949 KG3 ex-Keith (purchased Hughes Trading mid-70's).jpg

KG3 daylight variation.jpg

Following pics show KG3 reference chip against Vehicle Dark Green, firstly on the ambo where it appears over KG3, and secondly on the gun tractor over red oxide primer (not seen in this photo) which came as a surprise because I had always assumed it was KG3.

No.2 Ambulance body.JPG

CGT9 body.JPG

I’ve come to believe there was a lot more Vehicle Dark Green used in late production than I realized, and I’ve found quite a few examples already. I’m even learning to recognize the faded colour, which is slightly different from faded KG3. You’d be surprised how quickly your eye becomes trained if you do enough of this work on colours. Plus it adds another level of interest when clambering over blitz wrecks, armed with 400 wet & dry, large bottle of water, KG3 paint chip and camera!

[Tony Wheeler]

Just quickly on ambos, they’re typically very dark in photos, which would lead one to believe they standardized on Vehicle Dark Green after 42, as part of a tradition perhaps. Does anyone have any info on this?


029831 ADELAIDE, SA 1943-03-26. MOTOR AMBULANCES CARRYING WOUNDED MEMBERS OF THE 9TH AUSTRALIAN.jpg

IMGP1957 (Medium).JPG

[Tony Wheeler]

Now that we’re acquainted with Vehicle Dark Green we can take another look at Staff Cars and Vans, where 2-tone scheme features widely in 43-44 (examples seen below in NG, QLD, NSW, VIC, WA).

Firstly as Mike Kelly observed in post #453 concerning example 1: “The darker disruptive colour has a noticeable shine to it . Hmm”

Paint quality suffered during 1943 owing to shortage of phthalic anhydride, which led to suspension of gas resistance spec for a period, as well as various other concessions being made for suppliers. For example, B.A.L.M. tender for Vehicle Dark Green supplied ex-Melbourne against Contract Board Schedule T.71308 of March 43: “It is recommended that the tender of B.A.L.M. Pty. Ltd., Melbourne, be accepted for immediate requirements under concession of non-compliance with para. 69 – Mattness, of the specification.”

So, Mike, not only can we identify the colour, but even the likely brand of paint!

But what of the other colour(s) seen on these vehicles? We already know Vehicle Medium Green was discontinued in late 43 which leaves only one possibility in 44, namely Vehicle Grey. This may explain examples 9 & 10 which appear to display more tonal separation (higher contrast) than earlier examples painted when Vehicle Medium Green was still available. The two possible colour combinations can be compared side by side on the 7-ton semi-trailer body. Further guide to colour can be had by comparison with uniforms in some photos.

Note that KG3 can be ruled out due to closeness in tone with Vehicle Dark Green as shown in posts #505 and #506. Any vehicle painted in these two colours would appear extremely dark indeed.


Staff Cars & Vans 2-tone scheme 1943-44.jpg

Staff Cars & Vans 2-tone scheme 1943-44 (2).jpg

Staff Cars & Vans 2-tone scheme 1943-44 (3).jpg

7-ton semi-trailer, Tocumwal, NSW 11-2-44. SM4809 3-tone scheme..jpg

MSL report - Vehicle Dark Green (Large) sharpen.jpg

[Lang]

Tony

Just a WAG but perhaps they painted the ambulances in a single colour for the following reasons:

They did not want them mistaken for a tactical vehicle with camouflage. They wanted to appear less war-like.

They actually wanted them to be easily identified from other surrounding vehicles. Wishful thinking in an attack on a convoy situation but if operating individually may give some measure of protection.

The big crosses cause a problem as they negate any stealth ambitions. If a unit was actually trying to hide, the first vehicles to be covered with nets or branches would be the ambulances.

I suspect some people in the Medical Corps may even believe that the Ambulances should be all-over white as the Geneva Convention says you should not shoot at them. I think ambulances only get protection if it is convenient in the overall battlefield situation and the presence of an ambulance offers no safety to a unit under attack.

Lang

[M38CDNBill]

Hi,

Nice picture of the GMC tractor but what I find particular about this truck is the cylindrical object where the spare tire is usually located. It makes me think of an air tank and is it possible that the braking system on this GMC model was pneumatic?

Cheers

[Lang]

The trailer had vacuum brakes so the tractor had to have a system fitted. The truck retained its standard issue hydraulic brakes.

Lang

[Andrew Foulkes]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

This is something we can view in real life. Pics below show 1949 KG3 paint chip confirmed against 42 KG3 paintwork, which as you can see varies so much in daylight as to generate 3-tone scheme from the one colour! Notice how the 49 paint chip follows it faithfully, which may not be possible with modern pigments.

Tony

Thank you for the detailed information that you and all the others have posted on this thread which I have followed very closely. In parallel I have been looking at the colours and markings of the BEF in 1939/40. Although your focus has been on Australia, you have revealed further background on the earlier British Army paint and the access to Australian archive material that you have facilitated has been tremendous.

In particular, as you know, there is an original postage stamp-sized paint chip for Khaki Green No 3 dated 5 May 1940 in a file at the National Archives of Australia (barcode 440398). While I understand all the caveats about such samples, it looks likely to be a useful official example of the early war British colour. In fact it seems to be the only official one anywhere! Unfortunately, being in the UK, I can't access it in person and the current scan in the archives is not really much use. Indeed no scan of such a chip could really provide much information about colour.

I would be very interested to know from those who have seen the 5 May 1940 chip at the National Archives whether it is a close match to other samples.

One possible good match seems to be the paint that Bob Moseley had made up by Protec. I noted that Gina Vampire said at one point that the 5 May 1940 chip colour was close to that paint.

Another possible match would be the example of Khaki Green - J at the Australian War Memorial (AWM REL 16/500), although that seems unlikely. Presumably this is a post-September 1942 darkened version of that colour.

Another possible match is your chip of 1949 'Khaki Green Matt Synthetic Resin Based Enamel K4/10394'. I see you have compared it with '1942 Khaki Green' on a vehicle and that it is a good match. The pictures in different lighting conditions give a very vivid representation of the chameleon-like qualities of this paint. How would your 1949 chip compare with the 5 May 1940 chip in the archives?

Andrew

[Tony Smith]

Will this settle the question once and for all? Just needs a bit of thinners and a good shake.

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/st-l...int/1206315362

[Mike K]

Hmmm is there a date on the label somewhere ? Contains lead by the look of it. Could be post war or even a RAAF colour ?