VICKERS MK6B's resto

[colin jones]

After removing the sump as gently as I could it was not a good sight. One corner is all but corroded away and a section of the floor as well and I havn't looked inside yet. Also the crankcase spacer is also quite corroded as well. I knew it was very thin walled as I could hear the sound just tapping it. Rather disapointing

[colin jones]

I may have to re-evaluate this engine The crank appears to be good and I see it does have sleeves but the bottom is a mess. I will consider fabricating the whole bottom section but that will be a last resort as some of may have been line bored and that is not something I can do if it requires precision.
At this stage I will weigh up my options so far.

[David Dunlop]

Colin.

Bit of a shame with regards to the engine corrosion. It looks from your photos the main engine block assembly is in three parts. Upper holding the cylinders and pistons, middle unit holding the crank and related bits and then a lowermost cast, flat looking rectangular oil sump. Interesting design, if true. Could make for a lot of flexibility for various installations, but also a lot of headaches for restorations. And, of course, the latter point would not have been on anybody’s radar in the Meadows Design Branch in the 1930’s.

David

[Dave lean]

Hi Col', with a bit of luck some of the lagonda folk may have a solution.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by colin jones

I may have to re-evaluate this engine The crank appears to be good and I see it does have sleeves but the bottom is a mess. I will consider fabricating the whole bottom section but that will be a last resort as some of may have been line bored and that is not something I can do if it requires precision.
At this stage I will weigh up my options so far.

Colin,
The Lagonda club appear to have had some new sump castings made, maybe they are adaptable for the tank engine?

https://www.lagondaclub.com/shop/m45...eadows-engine/

I think the sump you have could be made of Elektron, a magnesium alloy, it was also used to make the mantlet in the turret.

Richard

[Niels V]

I know it might be far fetched, But Jay Jeno had a lower half of HRG engine (think Meadows engine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUG...735F5B&index=5
and there was also a feature about 3d scanning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60N...735F5B&index=3

Maybe some this could help

[colin jones]

After a closer look, I can make a new sump and the riser above (I'll call it that)
But I will get the rest checked out first to make sure the top pieces can be resurrected. David, it has a sump, riser, crankcase, block, head, cover. Lots of bits that have to line up precisely. Quite a complicated system.
Dave, I have joined the Lagonda club but waiting for approval.
Richard, I would say you are spot on what it is made of and would be very hard to weld which is why I would make the parts out of steel if I do in fact go down that path. They certainly don't look like difficult parts to make but I do not want to create any more work that I already have. Hopefully the members of the Lagonda club may be able to steer me in the right direction.
Colin.

[simon king]

Originally Posted by Niels V

I know it might be far fetched, But Jay Jeno had a lower half of HRG engine (think Meadows engine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUG...735F5B&index=5
and there was also a feature about 3d scanning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60N...735F5B&index=3

Maybe some this could help

I think the Hurg used the 4 cylinder, 1500cc Meadows Unit unfortunately.

[Phillip]

Hi Colin,

Awesome job. In case you do not have it, a picture from the book 'Tanks in the East'.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Phillip

Hi Colin,

Awesome job. In case you do not have it, a picture from the book 'Tanks in the East'.

And if my eyes are not deceiving me, the following tank is 272 Platypus (another survivor, now in USA). Good photo!

[Chris Suslowicz]

From the thickness of the (single) aerial, I'd say it's using 'D' rods and therefore probably a Wireless Set No.11 (unless it's really early).

Chris.

[David Dunlop]

Nice photo, Philip! Now Colin can plan a vacation with Wombat and Bowerbird to do a ‘Then and Now’ photo shoot at that spot.

Looking at that photo, is that part of the driver’s face just above the fire extinguisher, in the corner where the upper edge of the sideplate meets the headlamp box? If so, he sits quite far back in the vehicle. Must have been quite uncomfortable, when buttoned up, to have to use the Driver’s viewing port.

David

[colin jones]

Phillip, what a great photo. I don't think I have seen that one and it does clarify that the name of Wombat is white on green and not on a black backing. Thanks for posting
The crank is now exposed and all bearings have been removed, inspected and just put back into place. They actually look good as does the crank but I have a mech coming over this arvo to check it out for me. The bottom riser needs replacing and the sump as well.

[stephen crowhurst]

Just remembered I had this photo tucked away, it may be of some interest to you.
Cheers Stephen

[Lynn Eades]

In keeping with what Chris says, the Bovington tank has the folding aerial mount that takes the same base / insulator etc. as the early U.C., with D set aerial. At least it did, in mid 2014.
If that aerial set up only went with the 11 set radio, then that must have been what was fitted originally or at some point. As I recall the mount has been fitted with a later base.

[Mike Cecil]

The No9 (and 109?) uses the D set aerial, I think, but wiser wireless-souls than I can verify that.

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Yes Mike, It's a whole nuther thing, involving Warlocks and sulphur.

[RichardT10829]

Colin.

This may seem extreme..... but..... I will suggest it and run away...

can you not build up the corroded sections sufficiently to make a pattern to re cast a replacement ? I have no doubt this would be a very long process, but big hurdles have never stopped you in the past ?

looking at the corrosion product, it wreaks of dissimilar metal corrosion. I feel for you matey.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

can you not build up the corroded sections sufficiently to make a pattern to re cast a replacement ? I have no doubt this would be a very long process, but big hurdles have never stopped you in the past ?

looking at the corrosion product, it wreaks of dissimilar metal corrosion. I feel for you matey.

Richard,
As I mentioned to Colin recently, I believe the sump and its adaptor were made of a magnesium alloy called Elektron, which was very much in its infancy when this Vickers was built. It had a tendency to corrode in the early days, but later developments made it much more resistant to corrosion, just look at all the grey Ferguson TE20 tractors from the late 40's/early 50's that are still around, the gearbox casing was made of the same type of metal. It is very tricky to weld and need to be careful as it will burn. The fabricator that restored the hull of another of the Aussie Vickers MkVIa tanks brought back to England, had to build up the mantlet where it had crumbled away, it was a painstaking job, I think he was using TIG as I recall.
I don't think it was a case of dissimilar metals, but just an alloy susceptible to corrosion or breakdown.

[Snowy]

There was a restoration of a 100 year old Delage car engine where the block was scanned and a 3D master printed then cast (done right here in Oz, as well!):
http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video...otive-history/
I wonder if they could give you any advice.

[David Herbert]

Very interesting link Snowy. I didn't realise that you can 3D print a sand mould direct. Beautiful result but must have been expensive as all that high tech gear must be paid for by the work it produces.

David

[colin jones]

Thankyou all for your input. I have decided to go down the path of fabricating a new sump and riser. I think recasting would be very expensive and I feel quite confident in making the parts myself which I will do while the professional people do the head, block etc etc. On a good note however, I removed the oil pump from the crank case and pulled it apart. It is in great condition so I just cleaned the gears and blasted the housing and it will work like a new one which is not bad for 80 or so years old. The sump is 100% not useable as you can see and what you can't see is just as bad. At least I know what I have to do.

[colin jones]

The two brass sieves are good as is the 6 cross members that hold them in place. They will be used again.

[colin jones]

I managed to get the crankshaft out with no issues and it does look good and so does the block. I certainly does have sleeves so that is another thing in my favour.

[colin jones]

I'm really happy that 4 of the 6 pistons came out without too much drama but the other two will take a bit more time. I cleaned the top of the pistons and they are all marked 1-6, dated 1936 and the military markings as well so they certainly are originals.

[Dave Mills]

Hello Colin, have been watching the rebuild and am amazed at the attention to detail. Well done!!. Like a lot of us we are all itching to assist and wishing we lived closer. I read the last post in regards to the pistons.

I may be wrong and way off the mark here but I feel from the photos they look much the same as the Rolls Royce "B" series engine pistons. A few little differences as in the expansion grooves in the skirt etc.

Have just overhauled our "B60" out of the Humber and spotted enough similarities I believe to prompt me to make contact.

"B60"
Bore - 3.5 Inch (88.9mm)
Stroke - 4.5 inch (114.29mm)
Capacity - 259.78 cu. in. (4.25 Litres)

If they are close enough to wet your appetite I am willing to post a NOS (0.20 OS) and a Used Standard piston to you for comparison.

I also now the location of ample NOS - Standard - 0.010 OS and 0.020 OS piston sets a lot closer to you than Seymour.

It makes it easier seeing your block is sleeved the only maybe could be the piston Pin location and diameter.

Cheers,

Dave.

[colin jones]

Hi Dave, thanks for the offer but I am pretty sure the B60/80 engines have different pistons but as luck is partly on my side I will possibly be able to use 4 of my 6 pistons and just get new liners. I have just put the block in my press and got the last two out and one liner came out with it with relative ease. It is no biggy to get two new pistons made of the same size so I will do that as the last two have very bad pitting on the top and I don't think you could weld them and expect it to hold up to the heat and pressure they are subject to. All in all I am glad to have my engine back and also to be doing it myself.

[simon king]

The Lagonda aficionados seem to use TWR (presumably Tom Walkinshaw Racing) Volvo pistons so that avenue might at least be worth investigating.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by simon king

The Lagonda aficionados seem to use TWR (presumably Tom Walkinshaw Racing) Volvo pistons ....

And also seem to suggest that sleeving the block creates overheating issues and piston seizures:

http://www.lagondaforum.com/showtopic.php?id=845

[colin jones]

Hmm, that was some interesting reading from the Lagonda club. I saw the interview with the restorer of the Mk1V which has the same engine and they were also told about Volvo pistons but said they were of the same dimension but the gudgeon was a different height and not suitable for the application. I don't think you could run without liners as the distance between the bores are so thin. These engines might be different as they might be mil spec. The sump is certainly different to any that is in the cars, the fan and radiator set up is way different as well. It is interesting to say the least. There is a company in Belgium that I am I contact with that supplies new cast parts and I am waiting for some very scary prices back. In the Lagonda forum comments I noticed they were doing a lot of miles which wont happen in a tank but they are a lot heavier and cooling may be an issue.